preflop question

[Heimdal]

I would really like to post more here but I dont know how to get started.

Here is a hand I played(well it's not really a hand - I didnt see a flop)

2/4NL on PS. One limper. Good, tight and a little passive CO with $450 behind raises to $20. I have JJ in BB and fold (I had him covered).

I thought he had a big pair or AK/AQ. I wouldn't call this with 22, why call with JJ? I wasn't sure if I could get his stack (or just half of it) if i flopped set.

Weak tight? other thoughts?

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Call.

Its possible that he has Ak or AQ (more likely than AA-QQ), and if the flop comes with babies you can attack him (if he reraises the flop you have to give some consideration to him having an overpair). Also you might flop a set and win a huge pot. You're right not to play a hand like 22 though. Unless you flop a set every card that comes is a scare card and you would always be guessing whether your opponent flopped an overpair.

[swolfe]

too tight. his raise is less than 5% of your stacks. you have HUGE implied odds to play for set value.

[swolfe]

i'd call with 22 every time.

[thedecline19]

gotta at least call here, see what the flop brings. fold isnt correct as you will get paid if you hit a set pretty heartily if he has a bigger pair. This 5xbb raise shouldnt be enough to get you off JJ preflop. If any overs flop and he plays them hard, easy to get away for relatively cheap. I just dont think you can throw this away for a standard raise when its a pretty easily playable hand in this situation.

You really only get in trouble when the flop hits all unders, but then you just have to decide what he has based upon his bets. You could be decently ahead at that point.

[the machine]

NEVER FLAT CALL A RAISE WITH JJ. reraise and then put him on a hand if he calls or reraises you. you could be a 4-1 dog, he could be a 4-1 dog to you or it may be a coin flip or a real weak ace 10. never call becuase there are too many scare cards that can hit the flop. very tight to fold but at least you didnt flat call like i see so many other people do with jj, its just horrible.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Agree with both the other posters except i still dont play 22. You have no almost no chance of winning if you dont flop a set and you dont know if hes going to pay you off if you flop a set. (If hes steal raising he might give it up on the flop).

[Jacob_Gilliam]

nope, still call if you're confident you can outplay him on the flop.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
NEVER FLAT CALL A RAISE WITH JJ. reraise and then put him on a hand if he calls or reraises you. you could be a 4-1 dog, he could be a 4-1 dog to you or it may be a coin flip or a real weak ace 10. never call becuase there are too many scare cards that can hit the flop. very tight to fold but at least you didnt flat call like i see so many other people do with jj, its just horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is generally pretty bad advice. you're going to lose a lot of money by reraising JJ out of position against a tight raiser.

[Heimdal]

wow quick responses. The raiser is not a bad player (i have seen him play in the 10/20 and he is a winning player in my PT stats). He will not loose his stack with AA on a j73 flop thinking that I probably have AJ (unless he thinks im a morron which i dont think).

Also what difference does it make whether I have 22 or JJ if I put him on AA-QQ?
Perhaps my read was wrong here but that was what I thought he had when he raised.

Im just trying to learn

[swolfe]

if you hit your set, you don't need to take his whole stack (although that's always the goal). you just need to make about $140 more from him to make having called preflop +EV. lead into him with a 3/4 pot bet, he'll raise his AA. call, check-raise the turn. easy as pie.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

What, he only raises with AA-QQ? I cant believe that.
If you knew for a certanty thats what hes raising with and he wont pay you off if you flop a set fold both hands.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
you're going to lose a lot of money by reraising JJ out of position against a tight raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this sentence. For 5% of your stack, you should call with JJ. Heck, I would call with 22, but even if you don't, you should call with JJ.

With your read of tight, good, but a little too passive, then he still should be raising from the cutoff with AA-TT, AK-AT, KQ, AKs-A9s, KQs-JTs. (I firmly believe that you raise more in the cutoff than any other seat, including the button.) JJ is ahead of a lot of those hands preflop, will sometimes be an overpair on the flop, and can get away from bad flops easily. The 22 is only a smidge ahead of a few of the hands, not strongly ahead of any of them; it is never an overpair, and almost all flops are bad flops.

Also, there is a critical difference in implied odds between JJ and 22: If you do catch a set, the opponent's likely hands are more likely to catch a piece of the flop, or at least a decent draw, enticing him to play on. Consider KJ5 flop vs. K25. With any two broadway cards, he will probably at least call your first bet with any of his likely holdings on the KJx flop. If you held 22 and flopped K25, then he would only play on with AK, KK, or KQ and would immediately dump AQ, AJ, AT, etc. This is why the JJ has better implied odds (against a tight preflop raiser) than the 22.

[jullep]

If he knew he woulndt be payed off he should call with any two.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Well put

[the machine]

what do you mean bad advice. its called finding out where you are at if you think your hand may be best. its way to susseptable to call a raise with, and to the person talking about spiking a set on the flop that only happens one in 8 times so you are gonna put 160$ in before you spike one and you might not get paid off for it, sorry you dont flat call raise or fold

[the machine]

of course if you put him on aa-qq the automatically fold but if you are not sure which its pretty damn hard to read someones hand exactly online then y not raise and find out where you are at, you may be in the lead by alot

[the machine]

very true. what you people are not understanding here is that he doesnt have a clear read on the player, does he only raise with aa kk and qq or could he have a10s here and muck it to a big raise, find out where you are at preflop so you can understand how to bet it if you see a flop, call a raise and a queen comes on the flop and he bets. guarantee every single person on this site would be lost completely, aj will still bet that and so will ak so are you gonna lay down the best hand post flop. to understand flop texture and betting you have to be able to put him on a definitive hand and you cant do that by observing a single raise. he may be a tight solid player but they are even prone to bluffing from time to time.

[jonnyUCB]

then what happens on the flop? u ram and jam any flop oop who you already think might have an overpair?

I would definitely reserve your play for a player we are somewhat familiar with as well as when we have position. reraising is by no means the default play. Hell i'll flatcall QQ in this spot from a good amount of the time and either lead or do a stop and go situation.

[steaknshake925]

easy call here

reraising is very bad. youre bloating the pot out of position with a possibly dominated hand against a decent player. if he has AA/KK and repops you'll have to fold and give up the chance to flop a set and win a big pot.

[mythrilfox]

Re-raising is terrible. You open the door to another raise when you very well may have been able to flop a set for a great price. If you put him on QQ-AA you should call even faster.

You can't just go around re-raising every time you have a decent hand to "find out where you are." This will gank you in the long run. Just sit back and play some poker. Especially against predictable opponents like this one sounds, calling here is fine.

[the machine]

but you will only flop a set 1 in 8 times so you have to put in 140$ before you flop the set in the long run and on the 8th time when you call 20 and hit your set it doesnt necessarily mean he is going to pay you off if he is such a great play. jj is a premium hand but need to be protected. reraising is the correct play

[the machine]

just because you have a pair and he has over doesnt mean its exactly 50 50 pre flop, actually ak against jj is a 43 to 57 underdog and 44 against j10 is a 47 to 53 underdog, yes j10s is actually in the lead preflop because of numerous str8 draws and a flush draw

[ThePortuguee]

Under no circumstances pay any attention to anything this poster says. It is 100% wrong.

Do not reraise out of position with JJ. Do not reraise with JJ against a tight raiser.

JJ is going to flop unders frequently enough for you to show strength. A call or fold probably means you're ahead on the flop.

I'd like to reiterate taht you should not pay attention to anything this poster says.

[Siawyn]

You must call. The limper may call as well now and you definitely have set value. This is an easy call for any pair given those stack sizes.

[Tony.T]

I think you got this a little bit mixed up. This is not like in limit poker. Flatcalling with JJ and deep stacks against a tight raiser is a good play. In a fixed game I almost never coldcall preflop, makes the hand easier to play on later streets. This is not the case in NL

[theben]

first i need to say this: in cash games, you should rarely reraise with JJ. do not listen to the "always reraise with JJ" it is bad advice and will lose you money and cost you potential winnings. dont overplay middle pairs in NLHE cash games. its death

folding your JJ is actually not a bad play if you felt implied odds arent there. implied odds are really hard to calculate. if you feel you wont be doubling if you hit a set, then possibly dont call. if you think the limper will call and maybe payoff, that could justify you entering the pot. but if its going to be heads up, and your opponent wont even payoff your set if hes got a hand as good as AA, then implied odds are not there and the call isnt a good idea. he also has position on you, so he has an inherent advantage in the hand should you not make a set and be forced to play your hand as just an overpair. position is really important in hands where its weak hand vs weak hand

[joewatch]

I agree, always reraise w/JJ is bad advice.

However, sometimes reraise w/JJ is OK, especially if you have built your stack a bit and are willing to gamble. I see the pros do it all the time. When the raise comes from CO or button, villain's hand is much more likely to be weak, and you will often win the hand outright preflop, which is +EV w/JJ from the blinds in the long run. When you get called, you can usually put villain on KK-QQ or AKs. If an A flops, you will have lots of fold equity, and if a J flops, you will stack him off if he holds AA-QQ.

For me, JJ is never a fold unless it's there's a raise and reraise, or just 1 oversized raise. You flop an overpair often enough that calling raises is +EV.

[umdpoker]

re-raising with jj preflop is rarely correct. re-raising with jj is the easiest way to give away money to aa/kk/qq. if they re-raise big, you have to lay down without even seeing a flop. qq will often just flat-call.

therefore, a re-raise really doesn't accomplish much. if you get reraised big, you know where you are, but you payed too much for the info. if you get called, you still might be in for an ass-raping.

[joewatch]

[ QUOTE ]
re-raising with jj is the easiest way to give away money to aa/kk/qq.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but it would be a mistake to assume to every raise, or even the majority of raises from late position are AA-QQ.

[Heimdal]

I had a feeling i made a bad fold and that's why I posted. But I would rather reraise here with 72o than with JJ.

I hadn't played with this player in a couple of months but last time I played with him, he rarely raised preflop and when he raised 5BB+ it meant big pair. This time he was more aggressive and it was a mistake of me to think that he only would raise with big pairs + AK/AQ. I still think he had a big pair though.

What should I do if the flop is J73? And what if the flop is T53? Should I do the same on these two flops(bet 3/4 pot)?

Obviously I dont want to become too predictable and if I play sets one way and unimproved PP another way, it will be easy to put me on a hand. But it's just strange to play the hand the same way when I want a action on one flop but not on another.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
What should I do if the flop is J73? And what if the flop is T53? Should I do the same on these two flops(bet 3/4 pot)?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, lead out in both cases. what changes is how you respond to his actions. if he calls, definitely fire another bet with the set, but not necessarily with the overpair. he could call the flop to trap you with his big pair, so you're going to have to make some sort of read.

if he raises, drop it on the T high flop, but you have lots of options with a set. if you think he'll follow up with another bet on the turn, then call and go for a check-raise. if you think he'll call a push, shove it in on the flop.

so, you need to take a shot in either case, but if he continues in the hand, play it cautiously when you only have the overpair.

[emil3000]

Sklansky wrote a great article (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/current/sklansky0505.html) about raising out of the blinds in this months internet mag.

Reraising with JJ is horrible most of the time. Don't listen to the machine. It's basically a waste of a good hand, that you can win lots of money with postflop.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What should I do if the flop is J73? And what if the flop is T53? Should I do the same on these two flops(bet 3/4 pot)?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, lead out in both cases. what changes is how you respond to his actions. if he calls, definitely fire another bet with the set, but not necessarily with the overpair. ...

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, do I disagree with your second point.

Yes, make the same bet with both, about 2/3 pot. Also with your Axs that flopped a flush draw.

If you are raised on the flop:
Flush draw: call or fold, based on pots odds
Smallish overpair: Probably fold
Top set: Depending on stack either reraise all in or call then check-raise

If you are merely called, then on the turn:

Flush draw (misses): check and call/fold depending on pots odds

Flush draw (hits): A smallish bet as if you have an overpair and are now scared of flush. Alternatively, check-raise (or even check-call, then check-raise river) if opponent is the type to bluff the flush without it

Overpair: If it is now an underpair, check-fold. If it is still overpair, either a medium bet or check-fold, depending on how passive the opponent is.

Set: Check! Note how this looks just like the flush draw that missed. Of course, in this case, you are going to check-raise. If he has an overpair, or even two overcards and some sort of draw, he is almost guaranteed to bet out here, since it looks so much like you were just bluffing or semi-bluffing the flop and are ready to give it up. This works especially well if the flop was two-suited and the flush did NOT get there.

[swolfe]

not sure where your flush draw stuff is coming from since OP was asking about JJ on those two flops.

and obviously there are as many different ways to play them as there are styles, and a lot of the ways are thrown out the window with specific reads anyway.

i think you were disagreeing about firing another bet on the turn with a set? that's just my preference. i play a lot of things fast specifically to get action on my big hands, and if they haven't shown any aggression i'm going to continue trying to build the pot instead of inducing them to take initiative.

if you were disagreeing with a check on the turn with an unimproved JJ after being called on the flop by a tight preflop raiser, well...i guess that's a preference thing too. i'm not going to continue to spew chips when most of his likely hands have me beat. i took a shot on the flop to knock out his unimproved AK and i'm done with it.

[fuzzbox]

If you know for certain that he only raises those hands and wont pay off a set, then call with any two cards and check raise any turn that doesnt have an A/K/Q in it.

If he lays down all the time, beat him down.

[emil3000]

Your idea of checkraising the turn is el diablos biggest leak, see mid, high stakes forum. I am guilty of it too. I think it's a bad play if it let's him off an overpair, ie if there's still decent money to bet after he bets. If his bet totally commits him, a checkraise works.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]

Also what difference does it make whether I have 22 or JJ if I put him on AA-QQ?
Perhaps my read was wrong here but that was what I thought he had when he raised.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way you can put a player raising from CO with one limper on such a narrow range of hands. You are giving the player far too much respect. I think any good, tight, aggressive player would raise from the CO here with a pair as low as 99 (possibly lower). It is also likely that a good player in CO will raise with AK, AQ, AJ, AT and even suited connectors. Whatever the range of hands is, you are ahead far more often than you are behind. Folding JJ to a single raise here shows fear of the player -- which could be a good enough reason sometimes.