Is this just poker or is it bad poker?

[RED FACE]

I think I put people on bluffs too much, yes?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($104.5)
UTG+1 ($9.5)
MP1 ($23.5)
MP2 ($27.8)
CO ($75.35)
Button ($40.05)
SB ($47.4)
BB ($41.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $2.50, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: ($5.75) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, MP2 calls $5.

Turn: ($15.75) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, MP2 calls $5.

River: ($25.75) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 calls $15.30 (All-In), Hero calls $15.30.

Final Pot: $56.35

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Jh Js (two pair, jacks and eights).
MP2 has 7s 7h (full house, sevens full of eights).
Outcome: MP2 wins $56.35. </font>

On the river I think I decided I was committing to this so hesitated a while before checking to try to induce a bluff.

oh wells...

[DoomSlice]

Bad poker...... at worst he has an 8, which still beats you.

Let other people keep them honest, you should be working on trapping him like he trapped you.

[PinkSteel]

What he could have to beat you:
AA, KK, 77, 55, any Q, any 8, any 2 diamonds

What he could have that you beat:
&lt; ...crickets chirping... &gt;

[swolfe]

i'm not sure how i feel about raising that from UTG. it's a good hand, but vulnerable to overs, so do you really want to play post-flop in a raised pot, out of position with people that have hands that can call a preflop raise?

[radioheadfan]

[ QUOTE ]

What he could have that you beat:
&lt; ...crickets chirping... &gt;

[/ QUOTE ]

This is hilarious.

This is also true.

[bobbycharles]

I wouldn't say it was bad poker, but one of those hands you learn from. My thought process would be first, why did he smooth call my early raise. I'm thinking he probably has a weak pp or AQ or AJ....also, how has he been playing thus far. Is he making weak calls to a raised pot with things like AT A9 etc. or is he solid. My next concern is calling your good sized bet. Why would he call? Is he thinking you are on a steal with AK? My thought is that he probably doesn't have a straight, or he's an idiot for playing 6 4 in a raised pot, or any pot for that matter. My inclination at this point is that he possibly has the pp and may have hit trips...possibly 66 and has an open ended draw. By the time he goes all in, I'm probably going to get away from the hand....as much as I hate to, however you are getting about 3:1 at that point so a call is not out of the question.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not sure how i feel about raising that from UTG. it's a good hand, but vulnerable to overs, so do you really want to play post-flop in a raised pot, out of position with people that have hands that can call a preflop raise?



[/ QUOTE ]
i run into this problem too.

how would you play this hand if you raise preflop and an over comes, check fold? lead and then check/fold? i usually just make a stab and slow down to aggression or is that too weak?

[bigt439]

Low limit, full ring, early position, where image doesn't matter much you should probably be playing jj largely for set value. I'd limp.

[THATWACOKID]

[ QUOTE ]
how would you play this hand if you raise preflop and an over comes

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's heads up and I raised then I would lead the flop then check/fold unless I improve. If he calls then slow down. When you are going against more observant opponents they may pick up on the fact that you slow down once they call so it is good to vary your play against certain players.

[kurto]

"Low limit, full ring, early position, where image doesn't matter much you should probably be playing jj largely for set value. I'd limp."

Though I've done it (depending on the makeup of the people at the table), but as a general rule, I don't agree.

You want to thin the field. You want the people with Kx and 10-Q and other such garbage which have a chance of outdrawing to have incentive to fold. Furthermore, by raising early, a lot of players will still recognize that you have some strength and give your followup bets more consideration.

If you're at a table where NO one folds to any raises, then limping might make more sense. But as a general rule, I don't think its a good idea.

[gulebjorn]

If you're gonna bet the turn, bet it strong. Otherwise, you're just giving him odds to draw and making it harder on yourself to get away from this pot.
Either put him allin on the turn or check-fold this.
I read this on these forums this week: JJ is a hand that should be raised preflop and folded postflop.

[tdarko]

this would be table dependant though right? you can't ALWAYS limp, no?

[Los Feliz Slim]

Lessons I learn from this hand and from similar experiences I've had:

1. Position is really really really really imporant in NLHE.
2. When you have an overpair and Villain calls a pot-size bet on the flop (especially with a coordinated board), begin to tread very lightly.
3. Pocket pairs out of position are really only valuable when you flop a set. Otherwise, you're going to win a little or lose a lot.

Are these reasonable conclusions?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
this would be table dependant though right? you can't ALWAYS limp, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah to some extent it is. However most of these tables are very loose and you're going to be in a very tought spot if you get called in say two places (which most would agree is common place) and any overs come. Even if you get a sweet flop like 10,7,2 you'll be in a tough position if you pot it on the flop and one or two of them call. Because who wants to play for their stack with JJ as an overpair? (This is essentially what you'll have to do, because if you decide to continue with the hand on the turn you should probably pot it, and most hands you beat fold while most hands that beat you push. You now have almost all of your stack in with not so hot a hand.) In late position I raise this hand almost every time, but in early position I don't very often.

[tdarko]

yes, thank you.