Live 1/2 NL hand (Foxwoods) (Repost to correct forum)

[PocketJokers72]

1/2 NL

Relevant Stacks

Hero: 575-ish
Villian: 800+

Villian (LAG, but plays a good LAG game) in MP open raises to 12
1 caller
Hero finds 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the button, reraises to 32 (intent: isolate and test Villian's strength)
Villian calls, 1 fold. We are HU.

My read: any PP, AK-AQs, outside chance of other suited broadways

Flop:
9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

(awesome! I hit top set.)

Villian leads out for 30
I think, then min-raise.
Villian re-minraises me back (90 all day now)
I think longer....call.
Read is now revised to A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K-T /images/graemlins/heart.gif/PP TT-AA

Turn:
2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Villian opens for 250 (obviously knows how to keep count of the pot, it was 250-260 by my count at the time)

In the tank I go...how can I get the full double up here?

I take my sweet time, count my chips down to call and see whats left...

"I'm all-in" 250 call + 190-ish more.

He thinks so long and is talking the hand out that I'm positive he has overpair and not the flush draw.

Villian says "Nice set" and folds. Says he mucked JJ


I really felt he was down to two outs, and I wasn't scared of the last card. Did I pull the trigger too early? I had position on the river, and could have pushed that last 190 or so in next card. I felt he was pot committed and would have called right then.

All said and done, I think this was a really disciplined fold for him on the turn. Even though I won the hand, his stock went up a notch for smart play in my book.

Also, I got mildly berated for re-raising with 99. Not to be results oriented, but isn't that a good play in this spot? I think it gives me a good opportunity to steal on the flop if he whiffs his AK or broadways.

Any comments welcome.

[the machine]

of course not!!!!!!! this is my game at foxwoods and its usually all i play. i would have made the push after his reraise on the flop. if you are pretty sure at this point he has an over pair why let one of 5 cards hit and have to face a huge bet and maybe have to muck your hand. with 64 preflop then another 150 post-flop with his minraise back to you why not push here there is over 200 in the pot for the taking and you should be pretty sure he wont call you if he does put you on that set, if he does call you then you still have the same odds on that over card coming out on the river which you shouldnt be scared of but at least you have your chips in the middle and dont have to guess on what he has. if he made the same 250$ bet on the turn if a queen or jack had hit do you put him on qq or jj or do you htink he now hit his pair with aj or aq. you can lose alot of money slowplaying a fiarly small set since there is so many over cards that can come that may give him a set. im surprised he didnt reraise all in with jj. i know i would have and then you cant call with 99. nice pick up man.

[the machine]

also of course id reraise with 99 on the button. in that game there is so many loose maniacs riasing from all positions with hands from q10 to 78s reraise and find out where you are at. you benefitted from his misplay of flat calling and no reraise, esp with jj if im pretty sure someone doesnt have aa-qq i will move in and sometimes i will move all in and represent aa or kk either way.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Terrible re-raise. Do you see why?
Edit: Terrible flop raise, too.

[PocketJokers72]

[ QUOTE ]
Terrible re-raise. Do you see why?
Edit: Terrible flop raise, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always look to improve my game, hence posting all of this.

I don't see why it is a terrible re-raise preflop. If he had pushed me preflop after my raise, I would lay down 99 without losing any sleep. Please explain.

I can understand why you would say my flop raise was too small, but my thought process was:

Villian leads out for 30 "I have a good hand, sir"
I think, then min-raise to 60. "I have a good hand too, sir"
Villian re-minraises me back to 90 "I have a really good hand, sir"
I think longer....call. "I want you to keep thinking you have a better hand than me, so I let you take a turn card, because I believe you have only two outs, so I won't push here"

Is this mentality incorrect? Not to be results oriented, but I was trying to walk that fine line to get max value out of a HU situation between to big stacks where I felt I was way ahead. I think this flop action set him up to try and push me out on the turn, which he did. He probably had me on flush draw (tried to price me out) until I stuck the chips in on the turn.

I agree that showing is debateable (sp?). This hand and 3 or 4 previous showdown wins I had the nuts at the showdown. I thought it might be good to reinforce that image that "when I go all in, I have the nuts".

[DoomSlice]

Your posts are worthless, try again.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
of course not!!!!!!! this is my game at foxwoods and its usually all i play. i would have made the push after his reraise on the flop. ...

[/ QUOTE ]
I played this game for the first time a couple of weekends ago. I found the game to be much easier than the PP$100 game and I crushed it for about $800 in the 12 hours or so that I played. When I was pulling in a big pot which I played very straightforwardly and won, someone made the comment, "You've played this game before." I honestly replied, "No, never live."

Anyway, I totally agree with the_machine, here, except that I'm not sure I push another $480 into a $180 pot, but I would usually make another raise. You min-raise looked like a flush draw, trying to buy a cheap turn and river card, so he just might call it with as little as an overpair. But I think your original raise should have been more -- enough to make a flush incorrect to call. If he reraises that, then you can go all in and it is only a slight overbet.

That said, I don't totally hate your play, if you are significantly risk-averse AND you are willing to lay the hand down to a flush and a big bet. Consider that you are only 2-to-1 ahead (only!) against Ah 8h. (In my limited experience in this game, an open-raise preflop could easily be A8s.) http://twodimes.net/h/?z=918225 However, if you wait for a favorable turn, you are better than 3-to-1 ahead http://twodimes.net/h/?z=918231 and it leaves you with a lot more if the flush does get there.

On the other hand, as the_machine pointed out, it leaves you with a lot of opportunity to be outplayed -- the flush card gets there and he bets his Js Jh and you fold, or a T, J, or Q falls and you have to fear holding the underset. Are you still planning to go all in when that happens?

As it turned out, you got the best turn you could have hoped for, completing absolutely nothing. The way you played it was guaranteed to get the maximum from a flush draw but let the overpair get away. If you have just called on the turn and river, you reverse those two (since you still have to call down even if the flush gets there), so it was a coin toss. In general with this situation, it is better to bet than to let someone take a free draw at you, however slim, so I am definitely happy with the turn raise.

In spite of TheWorstPlayer's arrogant tone, I think he is incorrect. The reraise preflop is reasonable, if you think the player open-raises with too many hands. As the_machine and I have said, you lack of reraise on the flop is probably a mistake, but there are situations in which it is correct. I do agree that the flop raise was pretty bad, but it is a play that you should make now and then, especially if you would sometimes make this same min-raise with a flush draw.

[Zag]

My previous note was before your response.

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand why you would say my flop raise was too small, but my thought process was:

Villian leads out for 30 "I have a good hand, sir"
I think, then min-raise to 60. "I have a good hand too, sir"
Villian re-minraises me back to 90 "I have a really good hand, sir"
I think longer....call. "I want you to keep thinking you have a better hand than me, so I let you take a turn card, because I believe you have only two outs, so I won't push here"

[/ QUOTE ]
But your problem is that you don't know which two, while he does. So he effectively has 10 outs, because that is how many cards could fall that will scare you.

[ QUOTE ]
Is this mentality incorrect? Not to be results oriented, but I was trying to walk that fine line to get max value out of a HU situation between to big stacks where I felt I was way ahead. I think this flop action set him up to try and push me out on the turn, which he did. He probably had me on flush draw (tried to price me out) until I stuck the chips in on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]True, that is what he probably had you on, and it worked out well. But if you plan to play this way, you should do it the same way when you really do have a flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that showing is debateable (sp?). This hand and 3 or 4 previous showdown wins I had the nuts at the showdown. I thought it might be good to reinforce that image that "when I go all in, I have the nuts".

[/ QUOTE ]Only if you really plan to push in on a bluff sometime soon. Remember that there is nothing more satisfying than a huge check-raise bluff that works. If you've got the stones, then showing is fine. However, don't overdo it, because then people will see that you are using it to set something up. Just turn them up and nod to the guy as if you are saying "good fold."

[the machine]

Villian leads out for 30 "I have a good hand, sir"
I think, then min-raise to 60. "I have a good hand too, sir"
Villian re-minraises me back to 90 "I have a really good hand, sir"
I think longer....call. "I want you to keep thinking you have a better hand than me, so I let you take a turn card, because I believe you have only two outs, so I won't push here"

Is this mentality incorrect?


yes this is incorrect. good read on him having an overpair. i htink anyone who read this far wold have told you that. the problem is is that you are not using your reads as far as they need to be. just knowing someone has an over pair doesnt halep you too much if you cant bring it down to one or two hands which in your reads is what you have to do. what you are saying is that the villian has 2 outs but 5 cards are an over pair to the board so really you are looking at 10 outs for the player and of unseen cards 22 cards that may be the ones that help him (ie he has any cards from 1010 to aa, pick any one hand that he has then there are 4 unseen cards of 4 ranks and 2 unseen cards of the other rank) so in essnece there is a possible 18 cards here out of 48 that may scare you on the turn if the card hits. if you read is as weak as he has an over pair then you are about 60-40 to have a card come out lower then a 9 and you should be raising here. narrow it down to say qq or jj then if an ace hits on the turn it wont scare you or you can modify your read and pull out of the hand if need be. IMO



edit to original post. you didnt have position on him on the river to push all in. when one of those scare cards hits against your set and he is first to act if he puts you on a set he will know he can push you off the hand so you better be scared of seeing the river. you got lucky as hell on the turn so be happy you got your chips in then.

[bkholdem]

Isn't this the game where chuckle heads try to copy Phil Ivy? Don't they do stuff like reraise big on the turn with nothing because they saw it on TV (tourney shorthanded lol) and think this is how to win. All the while anyone watching them play for a little while, and following the action on the hand knows that this is a terrible spot for them to bluff. Almost like you want to burst out laughing at them lol.

[the machine]

yes you hit it on the spot. calling huge bets with flush draws and even gut shot draws with no potodds. its crazy

[the machine]

whos posts are worthless?

[cfb1739]

Your reasoning on the flop doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You raised and were reraised while holding top set, yet you merely call his reraise when you put him on a flush draw? Do you WANT to get outdrawn? You are letting him beat you for free.

After he re-raises your raise you need to make a substantial bet (at least the size of the pot)or push. Your objective at this point is to win the pot, not double up (especially when there is a flush draw on the board and this is what you read him for!).