Thieving on the flop

[Guy McSucker]

I have tried to up the frequency with which I lead at flops that could well have missed everyone. How is this one?

Party 10/20. I am new to the table and readless.

T9o in the BB. UTG calls. MP calls. SB folds. I check.

Flop: Q 4 4, two spades. I have no spades.

I bet, UTG folds, MP raises.

1) Was this a good flop to lead at?
2) Should I just give up and fold now?
3) Should I be more or less likely to make these plays when I am new and presumably unknown to the table?

Thanks as ever,

Guy.

[Lmn55d]

This one might be close EV-wise, but I wouldn't bet it against two opponents (I would against one for sure). Someone could have a flushdraw or ace with backdoor flush draw etc. It looks slightly more believable when you bet into two people than when you bet into one, but you will still get called or raised by ace high etc. fairly often. Note that K44 and A44 are better flops to bluff at because less overcards can stay in. A44 I think a bet would be +EV for sure. You should definitely fold when raised. As for your third question, it depends on your image really. For me, for example, I usually am very aggressive and bet and semibluff quite often. So, when opponents see me do this, I will get played with more often in these situations. So for me, making a play like this would be more likely to work in the beginning of the session when I haven't developed the image that I usually tend to develop.

[TheCaptain]

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1) Was this a good flop to lead at?

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Not really, people will peel one off here.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Should I just give up and fold now?

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yes

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3) Should I be more or less likely to make these plays when I am new and presumably unknown to the table?


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Less likely, why chip spew when you can make the same play with some confidence after 2 orbits?

[MHarris]

Get away from the hand now and wait a couple of orbits before you try again.

With no reads, I'd rather be firing at this flop against one opponent than two. I don't like making this play as an unknown to the table, as it seems more likely that they will look you up with weak, but better, hands.

[Roy6]

I don't want to hijack, but..
what do you do if you have something like A8o (no spades). You're likely to have the best hand.

Scenario 1: you bet, a guy in position raises, who has either 1 or 2 spades, another Ace high or a pair. You really need to consider folding right now.

Scenario 2: you check, last one to act bets, you call and the turn is another brick, like 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You can check/fold.

So the problem is you'll have to give up the best hand quite often. And if your ace hits, what do you do, check/raise? Not great payoff.

Scenario 3: If you think you might have the best hand, check-call flop, check-raise turn (if it's not a spade) like you had the 4 (you're BB so you can have it).

What do you think?

[Wynton]

I've become concerned about how my image might appear if I lead at a flop and fold immediately to a raise. This fear is causing me to call that raise, and check/fold the turn usually, which I'm assuming now is a leak.

I can see an argument for continuing with this hand, by 3-betting the flop and leading the turn. I think it's debatable whether your opponent raised your flop bet with a 3, notwithstanding the 2 spades. If you continue to show aggression, therefore, he might fold a weak Q or a lower pair. Even if the continued aggression doesn't win you the pot, doesn't it create a good image of aggression?

Of course, I have NOT been playing this way myself as I am still mired in weak/tight-ville. But does this make sense? Am I too concerned with image?

[stripsqueez]

the guys i play with a lot like to throw money at a paired board - not sure why - they also throw money at flush draws - given it would be most sad if i was out bluffed i dont like it much - in fact from the front of 3 i'm hating it

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Mr. Graff]

If I was to take a stab at this it would be because I thought they would all fold more than 20% of the time. I lay it down immediately to a raise because my draw is so weak. Callers on this kind of flop willl usually have something they are willing to go to SD with.

I would only be concerned with my image if you were folding to raises repeatedly within a short period of time.