$22: AQs good enough for an EP raise 6-handed... asks a push-or-folder

[spentrent]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t592)
SB (t705)
BB (t3067)
Hero (t730)
MP (t1963)
CO (t943)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>

[mike28]

I limp here

[Jman28]

I raise the same, but I'm starting to question it.

You are almost comitted to call a push after the raise, in which case you will almost definitely be behind.

I'm interested in what others think.

-Jman28

[mike28]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the same, but I'm starting to question it.

You are almost comitted to call a push after the raise, in which case you will almost definitely be behind.

I'm interested in what others think.

-Jman28

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I like a limp. You can call the raise (depending on how big and from who) and see where you're at. When you get re-raised you're screwed.

[tjh]

[ QUOTE ]
I limp here

[/ QUOTE ]

I never thought I would hear that said !!
Not that it isn't the right thing in this situation. As a newb it took me a whil till I got used to seeing PUSH PUSH PUSH RAISE RAISE RAISE.

Being curious I used google to search the site for the phrase "I limp here"

I limp here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;q="I+limp+here"+site%3Aforumserver.twoplustwo.com&amp;btnG=Search)

7 references.

I raise here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;q="I+raise+here"+site%3Aforumserver.twoplustwo.com&amp;btnG=Search)

52 pages found

I push here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;q="I+push+here"+site%3Aforumserver.twoplustwo.com&amp;btnG=Search)

35 pages found

--
tjh

[theordinaryboy]

i hate limping ak/aq even aj in early position.

These hands do not play well in multi-way pots. I want to be playing 3 people maximum with aqs. This is still level 3 and the smallest stack had 12xbb, unless someone has a great hand i doubt you'd see a push here. If i see a standard raise from a player (im presuming) who has played relatively tight when he's utg i'm folding all but premium hands (obviously i am presuming again that these 20+2 opponents know what they are doing) but still i think the chances of a push are quite slim.

6 handed Aqs is a strong hand and imo should be raised to drive out crap and stop the blinds getting in for cheap or free.

Most of the time you'll just take the blinds.

However, saying this it does get you into problems

1. A standard re-raise i would probably call committing me to more chips than i would like. If i dont hit the flop i'm in trouble, a continuation bet puts me all-in (with your chip size in the example), a check on the flop shows weakness and you would have to fold if put all-in.

However if you dont get re-raised and a get a couple of callers you can get away from your hand if you miss the flop and you still have a reasonable amount of chips.

On the plus side if u hit u should be ahead as one would presume that ak would have re-raised (presuming no sets/2 pair). If they fols to your bet or if you take more of them this then puts you in a much more favourable position going into level 4.

Anyway i think there are good arguments for both sides, but i think the problems suffered by raising are less than just limping and letting the blinds take your whole stack when a A72 flop hits and they beat you with their 72o.

Aq in the first few rounds with plus 10bb's is a raise or fold hand not a limp.

because it is 6 handed i raise it if there were more players i tend towards folding.

just my thoughts anyway

any criticisms are more than welcome

[john_]

Why do you assume these type of hands don't play well in a multi-way pot?

You raise to 150 you take down 75 chips a few times that's all fine and good. There's no clear way to know what to do when you're re-raised. Anyone who re-raised you is going to put you in a tough spot to figure out whether you're a dog or a big dog. Are those 75 chips really worth that much?

[Phil Van Sexton]

I would bet 150 and call a push.

On the flop, I'm pushing if it's checked to me and there is no K on the board.

[theordinaryboy]

I presume that aq or any 2 big cards are not good in multiway pots thru experience (altho mine is not great) and also i read this long essay/experiment which this guy did about how hands improve/unimprove when there are more players.

I tried to find the link for it but i cant find it which is a shame because it was a great article. Essentially it concluded that 2 big cards fell in value the more players you added and hands like low suited connectors rose in value the more players you added.

This i know is very vague,i will try and find the article and get back to you.

If any one else knows the url of what i'm talking about please help me out, the article hand quite nice 3d graphs if that helps.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I presume that aq or any 2 big cards are not good in multiway pots thru experience (altho mine is not great) and also i read this long essay/experiment which this guy did about how hands improve/unimprove when there are more players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm familiar with this. However, I believe this was talking about limit holdem where you can usually chase just about any draw in a multiway pot.

Here its NL and the hero only has about 14xBB. You can't afford to play drawing hands. If you think you have the best hand, raise or push.

[hummusx]

I think he was responding to 'john' above who seemed to be implying that he DID want more people in the pot with a hand like this.

I'm taking the same line as other people have said and exactly as you played it - raise to 150. With only six people this is a pretty good hand (although I sure wish I was not UTG).

[swarm]

I disagree, I think you have to limp this hand. Your UTG you have no idea if you have the best hand yet.

By raising to 150 you are tempting the shortstacks in late position (Button and SB) with pocket pairs or AK to push all in. If they do push you have just put 1/5th of your stack in the middle and are almsot committed to the pot without the best hand and a very difficult decision.

By limping AQ if someone re-raises a substantial amount or pushes you can get away from the hand. You don't need to be playing "coin flips" at this point in the tourney.

Too many gamboolers out there are at this point to put push bait up in front of their noses...

If you raise 3xBB you are going to miss your flop 70% of the time. This hand won't go past the flop before someone is all in at this level very often, especially with how the chips are dispersed in this example.

Let's say you raise 3x the BB, MP+1 calls and you entirely miss your flop... now what. You either push on a bluff and pray he didn't hit the flop or have a PP. Or Check and watch any good player with half a decent stack steal this hand away from you.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree, I think you have to limp this hand. Your UTG you have no idea if you have the best hand yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe limping with AQ causes you to lose fewer chips, but I'm more interested in winning chips when I have a good hand.

I guess I'd win if I flopped an Ace or Queen and the villian had a worse Ace or Queen. In that case, I might as well have raised preflop.

I'm not worried about a "difficult decision" if someone pushes. I've already decided what I would do before I make my initial bet. If someone pushes and you have to think whether you should call, then you've already made a mistake.

I don't think limping is terrible, but I prefer to play these hands aggressively. I really want to improve my stack before I get to levels 4 and 5.

Here are 2 hands from last night....

This is a 50/5....

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t3812)
BB (t1435)
UTG (t1132)
Hero (t1895)
Button (t1726)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t1435 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t1135


This is from a 22 that I played with IC5....

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t860)
UTG+2 (t1280)
MP1 (t680)
MP2 (t890)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t965)
Button (t500)
SB (t635)
BB (t775)
Hero (t640)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Button calls t90, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (t225) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t550 (All-In)</font>, Button calls t410 (All-In).


Not to be results oriented, but I had the best hand both times.

Here is a Similiar post with KQ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2191095&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1) and lots of comments from other (several who may agree with you).

[john_]

I don't "want" a lot of people in the pot. But, I can play this hand a lot more profitably if I limp rather than raise. If you can't play this hand into an unraised pot maybe you're just better off mucking the hand.

Sure, you might have the best hand but when you do you're going to win 75 chips. When you don't, you're going to lose a lot more...or maybe just faced with this choice:

Did they re-raise with a hand that has me crushed? (AA,KK,QQ,AK,)

or

Am I only a slight dog?(JJ-22)

or

Maybe they are just stupid and re-raised my UTG raise with trash:(AJ? AT? KQ? maybe, can't really think of anything else)

20% of your chips are already in the pot....hmmm

And that's just dealing with the re-raise all in aspect. Any half decent player can probably play any 2 for a raise or call at positive EV and tear your to pieces postflop. See swarm's post if you want more of that.

[john_]

MP 5 handed is different than UTG 6 handed.

So is AK - UTG 10 handed. How did you have the best hand here? AQ?(haha)

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
MP 5 handed is different than UTG 6 handed.

So is AK - UTG 10 handed. How did you have the best hand here? AQ?(haha)

[/ QUOTE ]

5 handed and 6 handed are different? I can't believe I overlooked that!

Seriously, it will be 1000 years before you see the exact same situation come up as the OP (position, players, stack sizes).

I'm just giving examples of hands that are very good, but not made hands. At the same time, the blinds are too big where you can "play" after the flop, but small enough that pushing seems excessive.

btw - He had QTs for the flush draw. In the first hand, he had AT.

[john_]

Agreed, but raising makes a lot of hands you beat fold instead of call. If you limp AQs I don't think its hurting you that much to have AJ or QJ limping behind you. They're a lot less likely to do that with a raise.

You mean you had the best hand preflop in both cases right?

[swarm]

umm phil, completely different scenarios... they aren't even close.

The only reason I was stating to limp is the fact that Hero in the situation listed was UTG six-handed with an awkward chip stack to make a 150 raise(1/5 of stack) out of position. By raising you are creating a big enough juicy pot that both big stacks and shortstacks to act after you will be looking to take it down (dangerous combination).

150 raise isn't scaring Big Stacks out of the pot even with low pocket pairs and they will put you all in with AK and 1010,JJ,QQ,KK,AA. You have 2 Shortstacks in late position who will push any pocket pair 5+ or great in many instances and will call you with weird hands like KJ from SB and BB etc that you are not a big favorite against going into the flop. By keeping the pot small you take away the "incentive" for big or shortstacks to push in the best hand before your hand gets a chance to draw out on them. If your into being the 45 - 55 dog in level 3 then be my guest and raise to 150 in this situation.

I like being aggressive but you can't treat every time your dealt AQ the same way. It depends on stack sizes, position, table image of you and your opponnents.

By limping your hand is also much more disguised to trap the sucker with A5 in the SB or BB. I'm much more suspect of an UTG limp from a medium stack than I am of a 3bb raise that screams Ax.

[theordinaryboy]

i think this is one of those threads which get alot of debate going because both plays have merit.

Because of this i reckon i'll try limping with aq in these situations for a while and see how things go.

Just so i can be a bit more objective in my analysis of the situation.

[swarm]

Very true, I think it is really a situation where you have to have some reads on your opponnents. If you have some that like to gamble it up I would limp. Tighter table, raise.

To me the 150 raise invites a stop and go by a good player with a decent stack holding 77-1010 and a push by a short stack willing to take a coin flip to double up.

There are certainly times that I play it the other way if I had a larger chip stack.

[tsevier]

I have to agree with Phil on this one. If you limp and lose the hand you are down to about 600 chips or less in 2 hands (even less if the blinds are going up). I would want to take a stand with my A-Q suited here. I think another problem with limpiing is that you invite more limps from the players behind you, in which case you will be playing A-Q out of position.

If I raise here most of the time you will take the pot now, which will pay for the next round of blinds. If you get called, it will usually be by the SB or BB and you will have position after the flop. If you are re-raised, it is read dependent, but I would probably get all my chips in.

No matter what you are going to have to play a hand pretty soon (next ten hands maybe), not sure what the math is but I'm pretty sure the A-Q suited is most likley gonna be your best shot in that time frame.

Just my newbie thinking though.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
umm phil, completely different scenarios... they aren't even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

These hands are all in the same category:
- Very good hand, but not a made hand
- Blinds too big to really "play" after the flop
- Blinds too small to justify pushing

If you ONLY want to discuss what to do with AQ UTG on level 3 with 600 chips, I'm not interested. There's no point in discussing a situation that will only come up once every 1000 tournaments.

I'm here to discuss what to do with this "type" of hand since this situation comes up often in levels 2 thru 4.

I'm not even saying you are wrong. I'm just saying how I'd play hands like this and giving a few examples so you know I'm not just BSing you.

[swarm]

Fair Enough...

In the two scenarios you listed I play them the same way you did... Hand 1 you have a much deeper stack. Hand 2 you have AK which is a much, much stronger hand than AQ.

I think more of the debate lies within level 3 play UTG with a medium stack and you are 6+ handed. 75 chips is not a big enough bounty for me to throw 1/5th of my stack UTG unless it is a tight table. There are different ways to play from here and we each prefer different routes. I ramp up aggression in level 4. With 600+ chips i'm still confident heading into level 4 that I can get ITM.

I can see rationale for going to battle with AQ here. For me if I limp and lose a small pot and wash through the blinds I still have enough FE to get it back through blind steals.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I ramp up aggression in level 4. With 600+ chips i'm still confident heading into level 4 that I can get ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is well documented that level 3 is my favorite level. I hate level 4. Hence the differences in approach here. Makes sense.

[1C5]

Level 9 is my favorite.

[1C5]

The hand that did me in. 6th place.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t536)
BB (t2057)
UTG (t777)
MP (t3488)
CO (t612)
Hero (t530)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t530 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t536 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t1166) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t1166) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1166) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1166

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Qc Kd (two pair, kings and fours).
Hero has 6h Ah (one pair, fours).
Outcome: SB wins t1166. </font>

[Nick M]

man this is a really tough situation...I think I either limp or move in. If I planned on raising and calling the all in than why not move in, in the first place. Maybe 77 folds here. I like that. I mean what do you do OOP when you flop nothing and you get called preflop by one person??? Check fold hahaha ridiculous. He could have called you with anything.

POSSIBLY!!!! I might raise 225 and hope to get one caller and then commit myself post flop to moving in. Basically hoping than my opponent has 66 and the flop is like 3 10 J. 225 + 225 + 75 in blinds = 525...I would have 505 after raise.

One thing that wasn't explained was is this a 6 handed tourn or a 10 handed? If it was 10 handed I might play a little more cautiously cause we got 3 to the money. But if it is a 6 handed tourn than just push, cause they're all tight wads. 30 minutes in and no bust outs yet?

I make some decisions according to time. Obviously I don't want to take the worst of it. But I also don't mind flipping if the table is tighter than a crab's A$$. You want to play tight with me, I'm going to make you gamble.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not worried about a "difficult decision" if someone pushes. I've already decided what I would do before I make my initial bet. If someone pushes and you have to think whether you should call, then you've already made a mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the rest of the posts in this thread yet, but isn't this completely ignoring any reads you have on opponents?