all ins with 4 left

[sngplayer]

Hi all

first post here. I have read through the forum a bit.

I am playing low buy-in SNG tourneys at Stars ($10 - $30). I am having a bit of a problem, which is exemplified by the hand I just came from.

4 left, player X has 7500 stack, I have 3200. Blinds are 75/150. I get QQ on the button. Player X flat calls UTG. I raise to 600, X calls, others drop

Flop

6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Player X bets 300.

Now... I have been losing a hell of a lot of money by going all in here. I only do this when I feel I have a decent read on my opponent. The trouble is that 1) I think I have a distorted view of how far ahead I am in this situation and 2) I think that optimal sng play must be different than optimal ring game play in this situation, given a variety of hands that my opponent could have. What is your move here, if you thought that your opponent does not have a higher pp than QQ?

Needless to say, I go all in, he calls, the turn brings a 6 and he eventually shows me A6.

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I do understand that if I get my money in with by far the best of it and lose, that is just the game. What I want to know is this. When there are 4 left, will players always just call here and if the board pairs on the turn, they can get away from the hand? I feel I have a bit of a ring-player mentality, and that I need to make 100% sure I get that third place under my belt before going all in when I think I have the best of it at that moment.

Any help with this SNG finesse would be appreciated.

sng

[spentrent]

1) Someone is going to flame you to death when he sees that your very first post is a bad beat post. You have been warned.

2) QQ on a rag board is BUTTA. You know that.

[sngplayer]

Hi

Well thanks for the warning, but I tried to make it clear that it's not the bad beat part of this that is bugging me. As I mentioned, I know that when I get my money in with by far the best of it, losing is just a part of the game . My question is whether you go all in when there are 4 players left. Is there any truth in the idea that you should not do so because in an SNG, the point is only to finish IN THE MONEY. If you do not finish in the money, especially if you went all in and were called, then you have not played correctly. Would any of the better sng players here avoid losing their stack here against a guy who you KNOW will call any bet you make, just because it's better to be wrong and still alive than right and out?

Thanks again for the warning. Yes, I know QQ vs. rags is the bomb /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[spentrent]

If you are all-in vs an opponent who has only 5 outs with two cards to come, you have played like a champion, and you should celebrate when you are called by that fool. Win this pot -- which you will exactly 12,000% of the time -- and you have a great shot at that 5 to 1 payday for first place.

If one of those 5 outs pops up, recall the words of the great philosopher Kurtis Blow: "These are the breaks."

And dance to those breaks, because you have earned plenty of Sklansky Bucks, redeemable for hats and chips at the Great Poker Room In The Sky.

And, seriously, that was a bad beat post.

[syka16]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Someone is going to flame you to death when he sees that your very first post is a bad beat post. You have been warned.

2) QQ on a rag board is BUTTA. You know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol it's a bad beat post mixed with a should I risk a bad beat on the bubble... which is a good topic

[sngplayer]

lol... okay, I get the message. How it was a bad beat post when I expressly said that I was not worried about the bad beat aspect of it is not clear to me, but I am not very smart and I tend to forget things as a result of heavy cannabis use as a youngster.

So you are saying that there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between your strategy for winning money at an sng table, which involves finishing ITM, vs. your strategy at a ring game, at which you can always rebuy and get your money back from a poor caller.

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your opinion, even about the bad beat aspect of the post.

[sngplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
lol it's a bad beat post mixed with a should I risk a bad beat on the bubble... which is a good topic

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi

Yes, that is the aspect that I am interested in. Now I have to go back to my original post and check whether I didn't write something about not being concerned about the bad beat aspect since that's poker and getting your money in with the best of it is generally why we play.

Can anyone comment on this aspect of it - risking the bad beat on the bubble vs. ensuring your ITM finish before doing so?

[syka16]

There are times when you should pass up on small advantages in SNGs which is can be confusing for ring players to understand at first. At times, this occurs on the bubble. example: suppose you're one of two short stacks and second is 2 double ups away. you would rather take a coinflip against the shortstack because doing so will get you ITM.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone comment on this aspect of it - risking the bad beat on the bubble vs. ensuring your ITM finish before doing so?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a good topic and don't be offended by me, since I really am a moron just grinding and learning the low stakes games.

Something to consider is "how favored am I?" Against 5 outs with two to come, you are the lord of poker. However, if you're facing a coin flip if you call a bet -- maybe you've got 55 and someone is all-in who will have two big cards most of the time -- then you might safely give up a small edge now if you'll have a better edge by, say, pushing the next hand.

[sngplayer]

Ok thanks, that makes sense. The situation you describe obviously comes up a lot at the low buy-in tables, where your 99 is a coin flip against a guy who you KNOW will call with A-picture. I like th idea of waiting in this case.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
...where your 99 is a coin flip against a guy who you KNOW will call with A-picture. I like th idea of waiting in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the situation you describe, YOU are the pusher here, so you can't be scared if you think he'll call with any ace since the odds against him having been dealt any ace are pretty long compared to all the other hands he might be sitting on that he will fold in a heartbeat.

In other words, on the bubble, push that 99, but stop and think before you call with it.

[sngplayer]

Aha

You can tell what a newb I am when I tell you that I had to think about that for a second... but I get it. If he acts, he may have that AK, AQ, AJ, etc. If you act first, you haven't been given the information yet so you don't have to fear it.

[jzpiano14]

exactly! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[hummusx]

Personally, I would NOT push this flop. I want to extract as many chips from this guy as I possibly can. There's 1500 in the pot and you have 2600 chips left, correct? So when he bets 300 (which is a bet that this guy could be making with nothing at all), I'd raise it enough to hopefully get him to call with a hand like A9 or A6. When the second 6 hits, I don't know if you can get away from the hand or not. But most of the time, if this person does NOT have 66 or 99 and you push over the top of his bet of 300, he's just going to fold. If you raise it to 900 you may be able to sucker him into calling.

[swarm]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I would NOT push this flop. I want to extract as many chips from this guy as I possibly can. There's 1500 in the pot and you have 2600 chips left, correct? So when he bets 300 (which is a bet that this guy could be making with nothing at all), I'd raise it enough to hopefully get him to call with a hand like A9 or A6. When the second 6 hits, I don't know if you can get away from the hand or not. But most of the time, if this person does NOT have 66 or 99 and you push over the top of his bet of 300, he's just going to fold. If you raise it to 900 you may be able to sucker him into calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't agree with you hummsux at all... When you get down into late bubble position and you have an already good sized pot in front of you you don't want to mess around with just a pair, especially a pair like QQ were simply a K or A on the turn or river can kill you.

I can't tell you how many times i've slow played AA, a set or even a straight in late position to get villan to bite on my trap only to have the trap swing the other way and double cross me.

Once you have a good sized pot, take it down when it's late. Especially if you are still 4 wide and you are in a hand with someone who has you covered. Once ITM you can toy a litte bit more.

[sngplayer]

hi hummus and swarm

Thanks for the replies and the comments. I welcome this debate because it is the #1 thing tha is preventing me from winning more $$ at these tables. I can't tell you how many 4th place finishes I have that came about as a result of someone calling my all in.

On a related note, and this is, I suppose, a theoretical question...when you push all your chips in, do you want your opponent to call or fold? I think I have been using the all in as a way to get my opponents to drop and at these levels it is not working. I have a feeling that at the higher levels it might work a bit better. Any comments here?

Thanks

[sngplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I would NOT push this flop. I want to extract as many chips from this guy as I possibly can. There's 1500 in the pot and you have 2600 chips left, correct? So when he bets 300 (which is a bet that this guy could be making with nothing at all), I'd raise it enough to hopefully get him to call with a hand like A9 or A6. When the second 6 hits, I don't know if you can get away from the hand or not. But most of the time, if this person does NOT have 66 or 99 and you push over the top of his bet of 300, he's just going to fold. If you raise it to 900 you may be able to sucker him into calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't agree with you hummusx at all... When you get down into late bubble position and you have an already good sized pot in front of you you don't want to mess around with just a pair, especially a pair like QQ were simply a K or A on the turn or river can kill you.

I can't tell you how many times i've slow played AA, a set or even a straight in late position to get villan to bite on my trap only to have the trap swing the other way and double cross me.

Once you have a good sized pot, take it down when it's late. Especially if you are still 4 wide and you are in a hand with someone who has you covered. Once ITM you can toy a litte bit more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just one bump to see if I can get anyone else to take a side in this debate