Raise with pocket 88 after 2 limpers?

[Wynton]

Spamuell and I were discussing one hand where he raised with pocket 88 after utg and the next guy limped in. He thought this was pretty standard.

My custom has been to raise with this hand if in late position, or if there is only 1 limper, but limp along if two others are already in the hand.

Have I been playing this wrong in general? I'd really like to know, because this would represent a definite change in my approach.

[Alobar]

are the blinds loose or tight? Whats the button like?

I prolly 50/50 raise/call after 2 limpers....I could be doing it wrong tho

[imported_CaseClosed326]

Depends on how they play. If they are weak tight I would raise 100%. Here is how I see it. Them limping is basicly raise us and force us to hit the flop or else we are screwed. I like raising, helps you win two ways.

[Wynton]

Maybe this is a function of what one assumes people will limp with from ep. At 3/6, I see lots of people open limp with Ax, J10, 109 or smaller pairs. For that reason, I see a good argument for raising after one limper.

But what is a second limper likely to have? I think a second limper could have the same cards, as well as some better ones, like 99, 1010, AJ, A10. Perhaps 88 still figures to be better than the majority of limping hands, though.

I think my reluctance to raise with 88 here is probably due to a concern about being committed to bet the flop, if not the turn when the flop invariably helps someone else, without helping me. I know I will have at least 2 opponents on the flop, and probably more. So what are the chances that my hand will either be best on the flop, or that I will be able to get better hands to fold?

I'm not saying this reasoning is correct; to the contrary, I mention it because I think it's reflecting a weak/tight attitude that I need to eliminate.

[RunDownHouse]

Wynton,

I raise 88 after 2 just about every time, unless I've noticed one is an unusually tight limper (this in 1/2 and Abso 2/4 games). It sounds a bit like you're worried about raising preflop because of the situation it puts you in postflop. My advice is to sack up and just raise, and learn postflop play better, which should come as you put yourself in these situations more often. I had the same problem as well with things like raising AQs from the SB with a very loose BB and 3 limpers. I just hated putting in that aggression when I'd be first to act on a flop that had a good chance of missing me and surely hitting one of my opponents. I still don't raise every time, but I'm working on it, and I think its really helping me learn more about my game and aggression in general.

Can someone can stove some EV sims on how 88 fares against a likely range for 2 limpers (I'm at work)? I'd be interested to see how large the equity edge is, if there's any at all. I think even if you're at a slight disadvantage, the increased aggression in addition to the experience you gain will make it an ok play to raise 88.

[stripsqueez]

after 2 limpers you usually have plenty of pre-flop equity to justify tossing the chips in - your not spewing chips even when there are bigger pairs out and its 3/4/5 way for 3 bets - so for no cost you might buy the button and/or all the tempo

i like raise

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Girchuck]

If you can drive the button out, the advantages of raising are obvious. If a button is LAG, you need to change seats, but you might want to raise anyway, unless you are afraid of it getting capped four-way, which is one of the worst cases for 88.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

I am in the same boat. Post flop play is a big concern of mine as well. Also getting out of weak tight mode. These situations will help you work on it. If you have a read on the people at your table this situation can be pretty profitble. If this situation comes up again, post the hand and I am sure some people will be able to show you the best way to play it.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Spamuell and I were discussing one hand where he raised with pocket 88 after utg and the next guy limped in. He thought this was pretty standard.

My custom has been to raise with this hand if in late position, or if there is only 1 limper, but limp along if two others are already in the hand.

Have I been playing this wrong in general? I'd really like to know, because this would represent a definite change in my approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

I vote raise. Especially if you are in the cutoff. Increasing your chances of getting the button to fold alone is worth the raise. In any event at least try to take control of the hand. If the flop sucks and there is action or you get check raised just fold. Or bet and try for free turn card. Sometimes people just get tired of all your betting and raising and just fold. And folding the flop may encourage people to take shots at you later on when you have hit the flop. There is no law that says you have to bet the flop just because you raised.

[Danenania]

I would raise. I'd also raise 77 and sometimes 66 or 55 with the right conditions.

[Wynton]

Would your answers change if you're playing at party 1/2 six-max, rather than 5/10 or higher?

In other words, would your approach be different if you expected the table to have more calling stations?

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Would your answers change if you're playing at party 1/2 six-max, rather than 5/10 or higher?

In other words, would your approach be different if you expected the table to have more calling stations?

[/ QUOTE ]

They are going to call you more but they are also going to call you with many more hands alot worse than 88. So I would still raise.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone can stove some EV sims on how 88 fares against a likely range for 2 limpers. I think even if you're at a slight disadvantage, the increased aggression in addition to the experience you gain will make it an ok play to raise 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 34.4152 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { 8d8c }
Hand 2: 31.5661 % [ 00.31 00.00 ] { AdTh }
Hand 3: 34.0187 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { KhJs }

88 is showing about even equity pre-flop with these two limpers. There are 12 cards out of the remaining 46 that will make someone a better pair. The chances that one of these will come on the flop is therefore 12/34 + 12/33 + 12/32 = 1:1.1 or slightly better than even chances or about 11 times out of 20 I think.

So, do you fold 88 to a bet on a flop showing one overcard?

[Wynton]

This is interesting, but I think you also have to take into account the possibility that one of the blinds (if not the button) might decide to call as well.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
your not spewing chips even when there are bigger pairs out and its 3/4/5 way for 3 bets - so for no cost you might buy the button and/or all the tempo I ike raise

[/ QUOTE ]

4 way with one overpair
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 18.4062 % [ 00.18 00.00 ] { 8d8c }
Hand 2: 27.3216 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { AdTh }
Hand 3: 27.5754 % [ 00.28 00.00 ] { KhJs }
Hand 4: 26.6967 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { 9s9h }

5 Way with one overpair
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 18.9861 % [ 00.19 00.00 ] { 8d8c }
Hand 2: 22.8136 % [ 00.22 00.00 ] { AdTh }
Hand 3: 21.4178 % [ 00.21 00.00 ] { KhJs }
Hand 4: 26.6541 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { 9s9h }
Hand 5: 10.1283 % [ 00.09 00.01 ] { JdTd }

[RunDownHouse]

Oh, well with an overpair in someone's hand 88's value is going to plummet. Considering the normal 1/2 6max Party games, I think these hands are a little off. Try replacing the AT with, I don't know, Q3s or something. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone can stove some EV sims on how 88 fares against a likely range for 2 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

when did the word "likely" start meaning "utterly unrealistic"?

and u ignored the "range" part as well, try cooking it on the stove next time

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise. I'd also raise 77 and sometimes 66 or 55 with the right conditions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pre-flop equity doesn't change much from 88 to 77, 66, or 55

77 equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 34.6606 % [ 00.35 00.00 ] { 7d7c }
Hand 2: 31.7680 % [ 00.32 00.00 ] { AdTh }
Hand 3: 33.5714 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { KhJs }

66

Hand 1: 34.5740 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { 6d6c }
Hand 2: 31.6729 % [ 00.32 00.00 ] { AdTh }
Hand 3: 33.7531 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { KhJs }

55

Hand 1: 34.1662 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { 5d5c }
Hand 2: 32.0634 % [ 00.32 00.00 ] { AdTh }
Hand 3: 33.7703 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { KhJs }


As a matter of fact, your equity hardly changes with 44, or even 22.

44 equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 33.8269 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { 4d4c }
Hand 2: 32.3922 % [ 00.32 00.00 ] { AdTh }
Hand 3: 33.7810 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { KhJs }

22
Hand 1: 32.4785 % [ 00.32 00.00 ] { 2d2c }
Hand 2: 33.4790 % [ 00.33 00.00 ] { AdTh }
Hand 3: 34.0426 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { KhJs }

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Loc: .5/1 LHE Full Ring

[/ QUOTE ]

this is hush, sorry to be blunt but your sims are built on incredibly silly assumptions...bah to the weak tight thoughts, perhaps influenced by full LL.

here's an easy proxy:

shorthanded open-limpers = goons!

give the goons some love /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Wynton]

JR, am I right in assuming that you also advocate raising here?

[J.R.]

everyday and twice on sundays. Praise the lord!

[sthief09]

this is the most biased sim in the history of Poker Stove

[tolbiny]

"your not spewing chips even when there are bigger pairs out and its 3/4/5 way for 3 bets"

This cannot be true.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can someone can stove some EV sims on how 88 fares against a likely range for 2 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ] when did the word "likely" start meaning "utterly unrealistic"?
and u ignored the "range" part as well, try cooking it on the stove next time

[/ QUOTE ]
1. It seems to me it would be unrealistic to expect someone to limp from UTG or EP2 with less than two unsuited and unconnected Broadways. But I'm speculating. I only just became interested in playing SH and have played only a few hours of it.

2. I didn't know how to put a range of hands in PT, but I just fingered it out. Would you consider these a reasonable range of hands? Equity for 88 only went up about 1% from the earlier recipe.

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 35.5265 % [ 00.35 00.00 ] { 8d8c }
Hand 2: 31.0398 % [ 00.30 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 33.4337 % [ 00.32 00.01 ] { AA-55, AKs-A5s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }

[RunDownHouse]

No, because its highly unlikely that hands such as AA or KK are limping first in, much less second.

Limps, especially for the second limper: Maybe any Ax, any Kx (including KJ, hell maybe KQ), and Q6+, any Qxs, J7+, J5s+, 23s+, 24s+, 58s+, T6s+, 78+, T8+.

Just speculation, depending on whether the table is normal-donktastic or donk-donktastic. Anyways, when I asked if anyone could run some quick stoves, I didn't expect it to get blown into this, but if you're looking to play some SH and don't even know what the typical 1/2 limper will have, hopefully its been educational.

[Wynton]

Can someone tell me - in relatively plain language - what the implications are of these stats? Are they meaningful enough to have any implications whatsoever? Do they confirm what apparently is the conventionl wisdom, that it's better to raise rather than limp?

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
its highly unlikely that hands such as AA or KK are limping

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh yea, I didn't think about that. I'll try again. These are the hands I would have expected, in my SH inexperience, two EP limpers to have. After I ran it, I double checked the limping hands from mantasm's starting hand chart.

Well, he doesn't have any open limps. It's only raise or fold. After 1 Limper, there are only six limping hands on his chart from Middle Position. The rest are raise or fold. Of course, what he's recommending on his chart may not be what the average Joe Blow at Party 6 Max is doing.

But anyway, in this situation 88 is starting to look significantly better.

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 41.0552 % [ 00.41 00.00 ] { 8d8c }
Hand 2: 28.5726 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { 88-33, ATs-A2s, KJs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 30.3722 % [ 00.29 00.01 ] { 99-55, ATs-A5s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AJo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }


[ QUOTE ]
but if you're looking to play some SH and don't even know what the typical 1/2 limper will have, hopefully its been educational.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, very. Good thing I did this for my benefit. My apologies for filling up the thread with useless information though. I meant well. I thought I was being helpful. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Jeff W]

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 27.0394 % [ 00.26 00.01 ] { 66-22, A9s-A2s, KJs-K2s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 27.0331 % [ 00.26 00.01 ] { 66-22, A9s-A2s, KJs-K2s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 45.9275 % [ 00.46 00.00 ] { 88 }