Play Along...This One's Really Tough IMO [Archive]

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 10:08 PM

No reads here. I'll post the turn and river action later.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB bets, Hero ????????

brettbrettr

04-25-2005, 10:10 PM

Ugh, I say as I raise.

rmarotti

04-25-2005, 10:13 PM

With 4 still to act? I can't imagine this would be right.

Harv72b

04-25-2005, 10:13 PM

Hero does what he should have done preflop...raise.

Harv72b

04-25-2005, 10:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With 4 still to act? I can't imagine this would be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm honestly torn, but my gut says to raise. However, my gut would have been a lot happier if Hero had 3-bet preflop.

Shillx

04-25-2005, 10:16 PM

We will sometimes have the best hand here + we have a gutshot = easy raise.

brettbrettr

04-25-2005, 10:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With 4 still to act? I can't imagine this would be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try this one on: I think this flop is getting raised somewhere. Too coordinated. I don't want to get shut out so it might as well be me who starts the betting(?)

Ten7offsuit

04-25-2005, 10:19 PM

I'd go for a raise and try to get people to fold their single overcards.

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 10:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero does what he should have done preflop...raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-betting here pf is good. I, however, am not good.

MisterKing

04-25-2005, 10:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd go for a raise and try to get people to fold their single overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it gets re-raised to your left and capped by SB, then what?

Harv72b

04-25-2005, 10:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I, however, am not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yer better than me, I'm quite sure. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 10:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I, however, am not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yer better than me, I'm quite sure. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah. Missing this raise is kinda bad. Damn 4-tabling.

Harv72b

04-25-2005, 10:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And if it gets re-raised to your left and capped by SB, then what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting at least 10:1 with no more raises possible, Hero calls with his 6-outer.

EDIT: probably more like a 5-outer, given the possible flush draw. But still good enough to call 2.

mr pink

04-25-2005, 10:25 PM

sb could just be autobetting AK so you might have the best hand. if not, you've got a gutshot to fall back on and if your raise clears the fiels some, you can be a little more confident in your 9s being good too.

i'd raise

Harv72b

04-25-2005, 10:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sb could just be autobetting AK so you might have the best hand. if not, you've got a gutshot to fall back on and if your raise clears the fiels some, you can be a little more confident in your 9s being good too.

i'd raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it also bears mentioning that a good, aggressive player in the SB could raise with a lot of hands behind 4 limpers, and not just truly premium holdings.

mr pink

04-25-2005, 10:29 PM

yeah but without a read, that's not something i'm taking into consideration here. but yeah, i know what you mean. i'd raise 9Ts and up there.

Shillx

04-25-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sb could just be autobetting AK so you might have the best hand. if not, you've got a gutshot to fall back on and if your raise clears the fiels some, you can be a little more confident in your 9s being good too.

i'd raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it also bears mentioning that a good, aggressive player in the SB could raise with a lot of hands behind 4 limpers, and not just truly premium holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh raising someing like JTs or 77 loses a lot of its appeal when you are OOP. Most players tighten up substantially when it comes to raising from the blinds. So someone with a total PFR of 7% might only raise 4% of the time from the blinds.

Brad

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 10:51 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP3 calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero ??????

Nick C

04-25-2005, 11:03 PM

Ugh. My instinct is to raise.

A read on SB would help.

Now I'll check what others have said.

Harv72b

04-25-2005, 11:07 PM

A call/cap screams "I flopped a set" to the rest of the table (EDIT: or "I flopped the straight"). That may be good, it may be bad...I'm tempted to think it's good.

The same math as before applies...you're getting better than 10:1 to call with ~5 outs, and with a vulnerable hand like this one raising is almost certainly better than calling.

Nick C

04-25-2005, 11:08 PM

I say call. Capping might slow things down on the turn, though, so I'm not sure.

Pokey

04-25-2005, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP3 calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Folds and swears at himself for not raising preflop.

I'm thinking you're facing a flush draw, a straight draw, and a T or overpair in this field.

The three non-diamond 8s split the pot for you with another 9; call these 1.5 outs.
The diamond 8 gives the pot to the diamond flush: 0.5 outs.
The diamond 9 gives the pot the the diamond flush: 0.5 outs.
The heart 9 gives the pot to a possible 8: 0.5 outs.

That's 3 effective outs, with every actual out on the board dirty. You're getting 10.5:1 odds and you're facing a field of four opponents doing things like betting, raising, and calling two cold: you've got to bail.

Swear and fold.

Emmitt2222

04-25-2005, 11:09 PM

I would say that this is a clear call just because the other two options suck. Capping would only be for equity and I don't think you have that against a likely overpair and a two flush board. This pot is gigantic though and you are getting 11:1 on your call with what I would judge to be at least 4 outs so folding is out. I call and if it gets capped behind me I am bailing on the turn unless I hit one of my outs most likely.

mat

04-25-2005, 11:18 PM

against popular opinion i would fold. i think that i would have raised after SB's bet. of course then the action might have been different and i wouldnt have had to fold.

Ten7offsuit

04-25-2005, 11:31 PM

Looks like its time to fold. 10.5 to 1 is nice, but like Pokey said you don't have more than 3 clean outs, and I can't see your 9s winning here unimproved often enough to justify a call. The only way I could see you being ahead here (assuming MP1 and SB aren't total maniacs)is if MP1 raised with a flush draw to get a free card and SB 3bet with overcards + flush draw but that just seems way too unlikely.

mr pink

04-25-2005, 11:45 PM

you're getting better than the 10.5 to 1 that everyone is talking about, mp3 is coming along for the ride and possibly utg+1 will call 2 more here. the only question is whether mp1 caps or just calls, i think he calls more often in this spot because he has top pair more often than a monster. so basically you're looking at 11.5 to 1 as long as mp1 doesn't cap, and possibly up to 12.5 if ugt comes along.

despite the board being 2 toned, you have to give yourself at least 4.5 outs here, probably loser to 5.

that and the pot is freaking huge guys, you shouldn't be trying to fold in this spot if your hand still has a shot and you're getting a fair price. if it gets capped behind you, ohh well.

i'd call.

PokerBob

04-26-2005, 01:00 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP3 calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (13.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (16.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero ......

Pokey

04-26-2005, 01:05 AM

Honestly, this is why I advocated folding the flop reraise.

You've hit one of your outs, but now you don't know if it's fool's gold or not. If you bet this and MP1 raises you, you pretty much have to call, at which point you bleed an extra 4 big bets on this hand when you lose to the flush. Back at the flop, your outs were so dirty that even if they hit -- ANY of them -- you could still wind up losing. Given that the turn and river streets are so much more expensive, this is a hand that is designed to cost you lots of money.

On this river, I check/call and pay off MP1's flush. You've got the odds to see it now, and you might be good, but I'm not feeding the pot.

sthief

04-26-2005, 01:10 AM

damn, you guys are weak. raise the flop. don't fold. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT FOLDING. even when you call and it's 2 bets back to you DON'T THINK ABOUT FOLDING. RAISE RAISE RAISE RAISE. you might have the best hand, you have a gut shot, the pot is huge, you want people out. GET PEOPLE OUT OF THE DAMN POT BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY

PokerBob

04-26-2005, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
damn, you guys are weak. raise the flop. don't fold. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT FOLDING. even when you call and it's 2 bets back to you DON'T THINK ABOUT FOLDING. RAISE RAISE RAISE RAISE. you might have the best hand, you have a gut shot, the pot is huge, you want people out. GET PEOPLE OUT OF THE DAMN POT BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY

[/ QUOTE ]

welcome back /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ten7offsuit

04-26-2005, 01:23 AM

The censors again?

Entity

04-26-2005, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
damn, you guys are weak. raise the flop. don't fold. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT FOLDING. even when you call and it's 2 bets back to you DON'T THINK ABOUT FOLDING. RAISE RAISE RAISE RAISE. you might have the best hand, you have a gut shot, the pot is huge, you want people out. GET PEOPLE OUT OF THE DAMN POT BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you have no self control.

Oh yeah, and I agree.

Pokey

04-26-2005, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
damn, you guys are weak. raise the flop. don't fold. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT FOLDING.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...yeah. Let's throw another three hour's worth of expected return into this pot. After all, look how great the hand is! As long as we don't see a diamond, J, Q, K, or A on the turn or river, we only lose to a loose T, a set, a straight, two pair, or an overpair! We're probably already behind on this hand, we can't even trust our miracle outs, and you suggest that we four-bet the flop to "GET PEOPLE OUT OF THE DAMN POT."

Who the bloody hell is going to fold our flop cap? The guy who bet AND reraised? The guy who already called the first two cold? The original raiser? MAYBE UTG+1 folds this. We just spent 1.5 big bets to MAYBE fold one of the four opponents in a hand where, if by some miracle we're not already trailing, we can lose to half the deck on each of two more streets, and if we ARE trailing, we can't tell our safe outs from our trap cards.

Furthermore, if you think capping the flop is the best way to get people out of this pot, you're wrong. Doing so makes the turn pot 15+ BBs, and now ANY draw is getting pot odds to go to the river. You're not protecting your pot -- your trapping everybody into the hand. If you're really suicidal enough to pursue this hand in light of everything that's happened so far, calling the flop and betting, raising, or check/raising the turn is the better way to drive people out of the hand.

In short....

[ QUOTE ]
you might have the best hand,

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly unlikely.

[ QUOTE ]
you have a gut shot,

[/ QUOTE ]

...a dirty four-out draw to a one-card straight. Whee.

[ QUOTE ]
the pot is huge,

[/ QUOTE ]

...because people actually LIKE the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
you want people out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not going to happen. You've got a 3/6 PP game where the pot is big; nobody's running with any draws. You're likely behind. If you're not behind, the field has wicked odds to crush you. They're not leaving. Save your money and get out.

Entity

04-26-2005, 01:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
damn, you guys are weak. raise the flop. don't fold. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT FOLDING.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...yeah. Let's throw another three hour's worth of expected return into this pot. After all, look how great the hand is! As long as we don't see a diamond, J, Q, K, or A on the turn or river, we only lose to a loose T, a set, a straight, two pair, or an overpair! We're probably already behind on this hand, we can't even trust our miracle outs, and you suggest that we four-bet the flop to "GET PEOPLE OUT OF THE DAMN POT."

Who the bloody hell is going to fold our flop cap? The guy who bet AND reraised? The guy who already called the first two cold? The original raiser? MAYBE UTG+1 folds this. We just spent 1.5 big bets to MAYBE fold one of the four opponents in a hand where, if by some miracle we're not already trailing, we can lose to half the deck on each of two more streets, and if we ARE trailing, we can't tell our safe outs from our trap cards.

Furthermore, if you think capping the flop is the best way to get people out of this pot, you're wrong. Doing so makes the turn pot 15+ BBs, and now ANY draw is getting pot odds to go to the river. You're not protecting your pot -- your trapping everybody into the hand. If you're really suicidal enough to pursue this hand in light of everything that's happened so far, calling the flop and betting, raising, or check/raising the turn is the better way to drive people out of the hand.

In short....

[ QUOTE ]
you might have the best hand,

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly unlikely.

[ QUOTE ]
you have a gut shot,

[/ QUOTE ]

...a dirty four-out draw to a one-card straight. Whee.

[ QUOTE ]
the pot is huge,

[/ QUOTE ]

...because people actually LIKE the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
you want people out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not going to happen. You've got a 3/6 PP game where the pot is big; nobody's running with any draws. You're likely behind. If you're not behind, the field has wicked odds to crush you. They're not leaving. Save your money and get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus dude. You read that whole post and didn't realize he was talking about raising the flop, not capping it.

Yes, everyone will call our cap. We should be raising our hand on this flop initially, though.

Rob

Pokey

04-26-2005, 01:40 AM

Ah, I see. My mistake. Yeah, I can see a flop raise making sense, since we don't yet know that other people are absolutely apeshit over this hand. Face the field with two when you're likely ahead, clean up all those outs. Makes sense to me.

When it comes back to you capped, though, I still say it's time to walk away, for all the reasons I mentioned before.

sthief

04-26-2005, 02:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, this is why I advocated folding the flop reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, damn, he only has a straight in a massive pot. I'd hate to be in that position

einbert

04-26-2005, 02:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
damn, you guys are weak. raise the flop. don't fold. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT FOLDING. even when you call and it's 2 bets back to you DON'T THINK ABOUT FOLDING. RAISE RAISE RAISE RAISE. you might have the best hand, you have a gut shot, the pot is huge, you want people out. GET PEOPLE OUT OF THE DAMN POT BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

sthief

04-26-2005, 02:43 AM

I can see where you got confused. the RAISE RAISE RAISE RAISE wasn't supposed to fit in with anything else. I kind of just said it

sthief

04-26-2005, 02:49 AM

ok think of it this way...

the pot is 13 SB
to raise it costs 1 extra SB
you have plenty of equity

so you're paying 1 SB extra with lots of equity to make it easier to take down a pot 13 times the size of your investment

PokerBob

04-26-2005, 02:55 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP3 calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (13.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (16.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Kc Ks (one pair, kings).
Hero has 9s 9c (straight, ten high).
Outcome: Hero wins 18.50 BB. 

I am a fish.

ThePenguin

04-26-2005, 03:29 AM

Is it agreed we three-bet pre-flop? Raise SB's flop bet? Suppose P-Bob three-bets PF, gets one caller, and SB caps, does anyone raise the flop if SB bets out?

Bizot

04-26-2005, 03:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I am a fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't feel bad I sucked a double gut shot with Jacks to beat Aces and a set of Tens... capped the whole way too.

><> 4 lyfe!

mikeyvegas

04-26-2005, 04:56 AM

I only call the pf raise.

I raise the flop and call any raises.

I call on the turn looking to improve.

RiverTheNuts

04-26-2005, 05:55 AM

3 bet PF... raise flop, if 3-bet call flop and then check/fold... if smoothcalled and checked to, check through and call a river bet on a non scary card, if you get raised on turn or river then dump it.

DeeJ

04-26-2005, 05:58 AM

With 6 still in, there's no way I'm raising. Giving 13:1 I will be calling one, hoping there is no raise, calling one more but folding for 2 more (maybe not if I close the betting).
From the turn onwards I play the pot odds.

GuyOnTilt

04-26-2005, 07:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ok think of it this way...

the pot is 13 SB
to raise it costs 1 extra SB
you have plenty of equity

so you're paying 1 SB extra with lots of equity to make it easier to take down a pot 13 times the size of your investment

[/ QUOTE ]

This can't be Josh. Also, the consensus seemed to be 3-betting PF would've been better, which is wrong. Calling was correct.

GoT

27offsooot

04-26-2005, 08:29 AM

I think raising the flop is clearly correct.

I don't understand why everyone wants to three bet PF. I scrolled all the way down to GoT's response to question the PF three bet. I don't think u have equity (although I'm sure someone can run Poker Stove), and u'll be inflating the pot, which won't allow u to protect nearly as well. Also, u're in perfect relative position to protect your hand on favorable flops and the size will be medium sized to allow u to do this on the flop by not re-raising PF. If u three-bet and it isn't capped, chances are that sb will check to u and u'll be betting into a lot of flops that u may be drawing to two outs with so many in. Then u'll be calling raises to spike your set b/c u have odds and spewing chips post-flop.

oreogod

04-26-2005, 08:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok think of it this way...

the pot is 13 SB
to raise it costs 1 extra SB
you have plenty of equity

so you're paying 1 SB extra with lots of equity to make it easier to take down a pot 13 times the size of your investment

[/ QUOTE ]

This can't be Josh. Also, the consensus seemed to be 3-betting PF would've been better, which is wrong. Calling was correct.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just going to say this. 3-betting is okay for a table with 6-8 ppl seeing the flop (or 5-8, something like that) -- no reads I just call the PF raise and raise the flop. I was going to say more, but just came across this on refresh:

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising the flop is clearly correct.

I don't understand why everyone wants to three bet PF. I scrolled all the way down to GoT's response to question the PF three bet. I don't think u have equity (although I'm sure someone can run Poker Stove), and u'll be inflating the pot, which won't allow u to protect nearly as well. Also, u're in perfect relative position to protect your hand on favorable flops and the size will be medium sized to allow u to do this on the flop by not re-raising PF. If u three-bet and it isn't capped, chances are that sb will check to u and u'll be betting into a lot of flops that u may be drawing to two outs with so many in. Then u'll be calling raises to spike your set b/c u have odds and spewing chips post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pedigree

04-26-2005, 09:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet PF... raise flop, if 3-bet call flop and then check/fold... if smoothcalled and checked to, check through and call a river bet on a non scary card, if you get raised on turn or river then dump it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

QTip

04-26-2005, 09:29 AM

I'm not seeing the PF raise. What makes it so great that we've committed such a heinous error not 3 betting PF.

Bob T.

04-26-2005, 09:47 AM

Having read a lot of this thread, I think you only made it tough on yourself.

I don't have a problem with your call preflop. I think that that probably is the right choice.

On the flop though, I can't see any reason to not raise. Your hand might be best, and if it is, it needs protection. If you aren't ahead, you certainly want to make it too expensive for any eights to play, so your have as close to six outs as you can.

Calling on the turn is fine.

On the river, I like your bet, and you probably have to call a raise, because it might come from a set or two pair some of the time.

QTip

04-26-2005, 09:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero wins 18.50 BB. I am a fish

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do I sign up to be a fish?

Fat Nicky

04-26-2005, 10:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why everyone wants to three bet PF. I scrolled all the way down to GoT's response to question the PF three bet. I don't think u have equity (although I'm sure someone can run Poker Stove), and u'll be inflating the pot, which won't allow u to protect nearly as well. Also, u're in perfect relative position to protect your hand on favorable flops and the size will be medium sized to allow u to do this on the flop by not re-raising PF. If u three-bet and it isn't capped, chances are that sb will check to u and u'll be betting into a lot of flops that u may be drawing to two outs with so many in. Then u'll be calling raises to spike your set b/c u have odds and spewing chips post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i read through most of this thread scratching my head as yo why so many people want to raise pre-flop here. This post a breath of fresh air.

Harv72b

04-26-2005, 10:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why everyone wants to three bet PF. I scrolled all the way down to GoT's response to question the PF three bet. I don't think u have equity (although I'm sure someone can run Poker Stove), and u'll be inflating the pot, which won't allow u to protect nearly as well. Also, u're in perfect relative position to protect your hand on favorable flops and the size will be medium sized to allow u to do this on the flop by not re-raising PF. If u three-bet and it isn't capped, chances are that sb will check to u and u'll be betting into a lot of flops that u may be drawing to two outs with so many in. Then u'll be calling raises to spike your set b/c u have odds and spewing chips post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-betting preflop is likely to thin the field before the flop, which has obvious beneficial qualities. Again, you have to consider the mental aspect of that move--while it is correct to raise a fairly wide range of hands out of the SB here, few people recognize that; most will assume that SB has at least AK or a PP TT+. When hero then 3-bets out of the BB (another position where most players don't PFR often enough), almost everyone will put him on a high PP, probably QQ+. A pretty good amount of limpers will fold at that point rather than invest another 2 SBs into the pot, with the possibility of a cap behind that.

Additionally, you're assuming that SB will bet out into a field of (almost certainly) 5 opponents if Hero calls the raise. This is hardly a guaranteed move. If Hero flat calls the raise and it is then checked to him on a flop similar to this one, where are we?

You mention waiting to raise until the flop, but if you're up against a field of 5 opponents, how many flops will be safe enough to comfortably raise? The vast majority of the time, Hero will not flop his set and will be looking at at least one overcard on the board--do you then fold if SB bets out? Even a flop as good as the one Hero got is not perfect--the overcard hit and there are draws which will call 2 cold, making it difficult to gauge where Hero stands based on the flop play.

Finally, you mention having to call raises postflop to spike your set because hero has correct odds to do so; how is that bad? At the time that it gets to hero preflop, there's a pretty decent chance that he has the best hand--and regardless, just calling the raise makes it more difficult to play the hand postflop and more likely that he will lose the pot even if he does have the best PF hand. If the limpers then make a series of preflop coldcalls, and even if the SB then caps it, that is also a good thing, as Hero's pot equity likely means that he's making money in that scenario, even if SB does have an overpair to his 99. If it ends up being capped preflop and Hero then has the correct odds to draw to his set, that's not a bad thing--that's good poker.

Fat Nicky

04-26-2005, 10:57 AM

You make good points but it seems like your main argument for 3-betting is that it will thin the field. I am not confident that 3-betting will accomplish this as most 3/6 players at party will call 2 more after limping in.

Harv72b

04-26-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You make good points but it seems like your main argument for 3-betting is that it will thin the field. I am not confident that 3-betting will accomplish this as most 3/6 players at party will call 2 more after limping in.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be true, although I doubt that all 4 limpers will call 2 more. Whether or not it achieves the desired effect of getting heads up with SB or at least 3-handed, I still believe that 3-betting preflop is the correct move.

27offsooot

04-26-2005, 11:17 AM

You make some good points and some I knew should be brought up in my argument, but I didn't.

"3-betting preflop is likely to thin the field before the flop, which has obvious beneficial qualities. Again, you have to consider the mental aspect of that move--while it is correct to raise a fairly wide range of hands out of the SB here, few people recognize that; most will assume that SB has at least AK or a PP TT+. When hero then 3-bets out of the BB (another position where most players don't PFR often enough), almost everyone will put him on a high PP, probably QQ+. A pretty good amount of limpers will fold at that point rather than invest another 2 SBs into the pot, with the possibility of a cap behind that."

I don't think that a three-bet will gain u that much fold equity PF.

"Additionally, you're assuming that SB will bet out into a field of (almost certainly) 5 opponents if Hero calls the raise. This is hardly a guaranteed move. If Hero flat calls the raise and it is then checked to him on a flop similar to this one, where are we?"

It's not guaranteed that sb will bet out, but I think most people follow up their PF raises even with UI overcards. Just b/c many 2+2ers won't, doesn't mean that this person won't. If he doesn't bet out and the flop is ragged, I would bet, if there are Big overcards, I can c/f this.

"You mention waiting to raise until the flop, but if you're up against a field of 5 opponents, how many flops will be safe enough to comfortably raise? The vast majority of the time, Hero will not flop his set and will be looking at at least one overcard on the board--do you then fold if SB bets out? Even a flop as good as the one Hero got is not perfect--the overcard hit and there are draws which will call 2 cold, making it difficult to gauge where Hero stands based on the flop play."

Of course I'm not folding if a 10, J is the single overcard here. Obviously, not all flops are going to be as good as this one is. But I think that u save urself from building up a large pot and not being able to protect your hand the whatever % of time u hit a favorable flop.

"Finally, you mention having to call raises postflop to spike your set because hero has correct odds to do so; how is that bad?"

I should have said that u will think u have correct odds to call, but u may not be closing the action and have to deal with raises and re-raises behind u and then have to factor in the chance that ur set may not be good if the board is heavily coordinated. So it won't be as simple as saying, I'm getting 22.5:1 or I can make up the extra bets on the turn and river if I'm getting only 19:1 or whatever. If sb caps and then bets into u, u will likely justify calling the flop, with others to act based on the pot size and implied odds. Then it gets raised and/ or 3-bet behind u and u will be in a difficult situation.

"At the time that it gets to hero preflop, there's a pretty decent chance that he has the best hand--and regardless, just calling the raise makes it more difficult to play the hand postflop and more likely that he will lose the pot even if he does have the best PF hand. If the limpers then make a series of preflop coldcalls, and even if the SB then caps it, that is also a good thing, as Hero's pot equity likely means that he's making money in that scenario, even if SB does have an overpair to his 99. If it ends up being capped preflop and Hero then has the correct odds to draw to his set, that's not a bad thing--that's good poker."

I think that it's easier to play post-flop by not 3-betting PF. I assessed why if it's capped PF and you're getting enough "odds", it still may be incorrect to call.

Harv72b

04-26-2005, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I'm not folding if a 10, J is the single overcard here. Obviously, not all flops are going to be as good as this one is. But I think that u save urself from building up a large pot and not being able to protect your hand the whatever % of time u hit a favorable flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero calls the PFR & the limpers all call, the pot stands at 12 SBs on the flop. If SB then bets out and Hero raises, the first limper is getting 7.5:1 immediate to call (+ the prospect of more coldcallers behind him - the possibilty of a 3-bet behind him = about 7.5:1). That's good enough to call with 2 overcards + a backdoor, let alone a legit hand or stronger draw. The pot is already going to be too big to protect your hand with a flop raise, but it is not too big to protect it with a preflop 3-bet. The point has been made that a lot of 3/6 players will not fold after limping in and I'll concede that, but that does not change whether or not it's the correct play. Especially if those players will then abandon their overcard(s) should they whiff on the flop, figuring that PFR + preflop 3-bet = at least one overpair.

[ QUOTE ]
I should have said that u will think u have correct odds to call, but u may not be closing the action and have to deal with raises and re-raises behind u and then have to factor in the chance that ur set may not be good if the board is heavily coordinated. So it won't be as simple as saying, I'm getting 22.5:1 or I can make up the extra bets on the turn and river if I'm getting only 19:1 or whatever. If sb caps and then bets into u, u will likely justify calling the flop, with others to act based on the pot size and implied odds. Then it gets raised and/ or 3-bet behind u and u will be in a difficult situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming you call in that situation. As the old saying goes, "good enough to call, good enough to raise". /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Mr Mateo

04-27-2005, 03:48 AM

Am I the only person on this whole website who thinks the flop is a clear fold? I mean to the FIRST 3 bucks? I dont understand. I guess I havnt play enough low limit lately. But I created an account just to post this so here goes.

Without a read on the SB I would start by giving him credit for a hand. raising 6 people means he has really got something, or perhaps a value raise that he will give up unless he hits the flop hard. In any case i might 3 bet if i think people are capable of folding but if i do decide to call, (which i probably would) i would be prepared to release my hand unless i hit the flop hard. By hard i mean a set or a premium draw.

Im not real sure why everyone is so in love with this pair of nines. In a six handed pot with a very coordinated board 99 is not a good hand. When you add a raiser from the sb it is worse. Can we just accept that the hero does not have the best hand on the flop for a minute? Aside from the preflop raiser who bet into 5 people there are still 4 players to act any of which could have a 10, 67, 89, or flushdraws, J9 (which would really screw you), ect.

So if we accept for a moment that you do not have the best hand, you have to ask yourself do i have a good draw? This is not even a bad draw it is a horrible one. There are several factors that make this a horrible draw.
1. First of all you are in the worst possible position. The hero is stuck behind the person with a real hand and a crowd of people trying to run him down. You MIGHT have enough outs to try to take a card off to hit a gut shot, but do you want to call 2,3, or 4 bets? By calling here your are leaving your self open to having to call more bets after it gets raised behind you.
2. Your straight draw is a gutshot.
3. Your gutshot is a one card straight draw. Which means someone could have J 9 or 89 and you would be in bad shape. People overvalue one card straight draws a lot, your have to chop a lot.
4. There is a flush draw and on board and 6 people seeing the flop.
5. A set makes the one card straight on board and you don’t have the flush card of your pp.

I really don’t see any upside to this draw, if this is the kind of hand that you just cant let go, then what hands can you fold?
mateo

NickRegino

04-27-2005, 03:52 AM

reraise PF!!!

PokerBob

04-27-2005, 06:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I really don’t see any upside to this draw, if this is the kind of hand that you just cant let go, then what hands can you fold?
mateo

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (11.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (10.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero folds, CO raises, UTG+2 calls.

River: (14.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 14.16 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG+2 has Kd Kc (flush, king high).
CO has 5d 5c (flush, eight high).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 14.16 BB.

Kristian

04-27-2005, 07:26 AM

Seriously?
I could be drawing dead, and a good card on the turn could cost me a lot of money. I would fold to the cap without even thinking about it.
But the flop must be raised anyway.

Kristian

04-27-2005, 07:45 AM

I have to mostly agree.
This hand could have done with some early aggresion to see what you were up against, but I would never call a 3-bet or cap (if you had raised) on the flop for all the reasons Mateo posted. Glad you won it though /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Mr Mateo

04-28-2005, 07:39 AM

good fold on that one. Poker Bob im sorry, i didnt mean to say you dont fold enough, it was a statement in general. I am glad you won with the original hand. And also i should say that i wasnt at the table so i wouldnt know if your were beat. And talk about crappy draws what was 5 5 doing in there, except dumping money?

StellarWind

04-28-2005, 12:59 PM

Just call preflop:

1. Without a read, a PFR in SB puts a big dent in your equity.

2. Often you will be capped by an overpair.

3. You want SB to make the mistake of betting the flop with overcards so you can raise him.

4. Your bad position will cost you some pots. That's another dent in your equity.

Summary: 3-betting offers no value and hurts you postflop.

Raise the flop unless you are nearly certain he is betting an overpair. You need to push out eights, nines, and overcards to protect your hand and your outs. Without a read this is a mandatory raise.

There is an important concept that is rarely mentioned. If you call from this position it is probable that someone will raise behind you. If you raise that same player will often just call or even fold. Raising frequently provides a major tactical advantage without increasing your actual cost to see the turn.

Raising is also the first step toward figuring out if an unimproved pair of nines is worth showing. Money lost now may come back on the river.

Having called the flop, call again.

So you called three bets on the flop with your obvious draw. Having hit your flush on the turn you should bet it /images/graemlins/wink.gif. This is an awesome opportunity to protect your hand and your outs. It's unlikely that you will be raised and if you are I doubt you need to bother calling.

Bet the river.

sthief09

04-28-2005, 01:20 PM

this thread is really old and it's been discussed, but I can say with 99.9% confidence that folding is the worst thing you can do there

Chris Dow

04-28-2005, 01:21 PM

After wasting my time reading this post, which is really just my response because you guys made it so damn long. I would, ummmm, never reraise this preflop unless the guy is a true maniac out of the sb because 99 just isn't gonna play well enough for ya. So calling looks great. Holy [censored] you didn't raise when the sb bet the flop. After you don't do that I completely lose you on this one. You opt for call/call/call/bet river, which is ok since on the river you do make the straight. However, please, please, ummmm please, raise that flop, it hurt my eyes very badly when you did not.