Raise this river and fold to a 3-bet?

[brazilio]

I'm a pansy. Villain's a donk the size of a dump truck. I was planning on raising the river, but then that damned flush card showed up and donks are stupid.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[brettbrettr]

I'd still raise the river, flush or not. Do you think he'd bet the turn with a flush draw?

[Ten7offsuit]

I think most people would raise the turn here and go into call down mode if 3bet.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd still raise the river, flush or not. Do you think he'd bet the turn with a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Woops. Me no see board pair.

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd still raise the river, flush or not. Do you think he'd bet the turn with a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 2/4, I see donks betting a turned gutshot.

[Nate tha' Great]

i don't like a plan that involves folding to a donk 3-bet.

[brazilio]

Are you raising the river?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you raising the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on what sort of donk he is.

[brazilio]

A medium-sized donk who likes to bluff bet out scare cards, and calls down a 7-high OESD (that misses). 40% VP$IP, pfr 5 or so. Run of the mill dicer.

[SackUp]

I raise the turn to find out where you are at. Betting out on the turn looks much more like a bluff at hitting trips or hitting trips and not being smart enough for the c/r.

I raise the turn and go from there. Call down UI if he 3 bets the turn. If he just calls your turn raise and then bets out on the river again, then I would probably just call this river.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
who likes to bluff bet out scare cards ...calls down a 7-high OESD (that misses)

[/ QUOTE ]


I cant think of a player against whom I would rather raise this river.

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the turn to find out where you are at. Betting out on the turn looks much more like a bluff at hitting trips or hitting trips and not being smart enough for the c/r.

I raise the turn and go from there. Call down UI if he 3 bets the turn. If he just calls your turn raise and then bets out on the river again, then I would probably just call this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not raising any big street to find out where I'm at.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise the turn to find out where you are at. Betting out on the turn looks much more like a bluff at hitting trips or hitting trips and not being smart enough for the c/r.

I raise the turn and go from there. Call down UI if he 3 bets the turn. If he just calls your turn raise and then bets out on the river again, then I would probably just call this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not raising any big street to find out where I'm at.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would rather fold to a 3 bet on the river and not get a SD?? I think you are ahead on this turn and you need to get the bets in when you can. He's likely going to call one more bet on some week draw or lame pair and then his river bet tells you alot more if he does the stop and go 3 times in a row. I'm much more comfortable just caller the river if the pulls the sng for a 3rd time. Charge his weak draw, but don't feed him chips if he hits.

[brazilio]

I didn't say I'd rather fold to a 3-bet on the river, I don't want to fold against this idiot ever. That's why there's a question mark on my post. As for raising a street, I'm going to raise the river over the turn as I don't need INFORMATION, I need VALUE. You're advocating an expensive and unreliable way to find out I'm second best on a hand I don't want to fold.

I'm never going to be raising for information on the turn, because that implies that I can use that information to change my action on later streets, which won't happen.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say I'd rather fold to a 3-bet on the river, I don't want to fold against this idiot ever. That's why there's a question mark on my post. As for raising a street, I'm going to raise the river over the turn as I don't need INFORMATION, I need VALUE. You're advocating an expensive and unreliable way to find out I'm second best on a hand I don't want to fold.

I'm never going to be raising for information on the turn, because that implies that I can use that information to change my action on later streets, which won't happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you are saying here. How am I advocating an expensive and unreliable way to find out you are second best? It costs you the same amount of bets if you call a turn 3 bet and call a river bet as it would if you call the turn bet and call a river 3 bet. You actually lose value in the latter route. Under my route you can get an extra bet in if you improve on the river.

And you posed the possibility of folding to a 3 bet not me. I don't know why you are getting all uppity when I questioned it. You obviously were considering folding to a 3bet at some point otherwise you wouldn't have titled your post as such.

Finally, why don't you want information? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Information can never hurt. Depending on what he does after your turn raise can defintiely change your action on the river.

[tytygoodnuts]

Definitely raise the turn, brazilio.

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say I'd rather fold to a 3-bet on the river, I don't want to fold against this idiot ever. That's why there's a question mark on my post. As for raising a street, I'm going to raise the river over the turn as I don't need INFORMATION, I need VALUE. You're advocating an expensive and unreliable way to find out I'm second best on a hand I don't want to fold.

I'm never going to be raising for information on the turn, because that implies that I can use that information to change my action on later streets, which won't happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you are saying here. How am I advocating an expensive and unreliable way to find out you are second best? It costs you the same amount of bets if you call a turn 3 bet and call a river bet as it would if you call the turn bet and call a river 3 bet. You actually lose value in the latter route. Under my route you can get an extra bet in if you improve on the river.



[/ QUOTE ]

The river is a less aggressive street. What does him calling my raise on the turn get me? Nothing. What does him 3-betting me on the turn get me? Absolutely nothing, because I'm calling down anyway.

[ QUOTE ]

And you posed the possibility of folding to a 3 bet not me. I don't know why you are getting all uppity when I questioned it. You obviously were considering folding to a 3bet at some point otherwise you wouldn't have titled your post as such.


[/ QUOTE ]
I was asking it in terms of should I be doing this, not as "ok, I'm doing this now and I want confirmation".
[ QUOTE ]

Finally, why don't you want information? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Information can never hurt. Depending on what he does after your turn raise can defintiely change your action on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? No action on the turn will change my actions on the river. I raise, he 3-bets. I call down. I raise, he calls. Neither one gives me [censored]. Paying for information is ridiculous on later streets, especially from a donk. If I were paying for information and thought it would be in any way reliable FROM A DONK then you should agree with folding to a 3-bet. After all, I just paid for it.