Second pair against 2 players

[Roy6]

Opponents are passive calling stations.
I think the preflop call/raise is debatable. I think I'm better off C/R-ing the flops that hit me, than betting all the way against 3 players.
This time I think it's very possible I'm ahead, so I bet the flop and the turn. I don't know whether CO or MP are drawing or have a J (they wouldn't raise with a Jack, except AJ)
Is this a good line?


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP folds, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[Rico Suave]

Roy:

This should be an automatic raise preflop...I don't think it is really debateable.

Considering that you describe your opponents as loose passive calling stations, I think you are better off betting the river. They will pay you off with a worse hand if you bet, but they are unlikely to bet a busted draw or worse hand. So, by checking with the intention of calling, you let them check behind with a worse hand, and value bet when they are ahead.

--Rico

[zephed56]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponents are passive calling stations.
I think the preflop call/raise is debatable. I think I'm better off C/R-ing the flops that hit me, than betting all the way against 3 players.
This time I think it's very possible I'm ahead, so I bet the flop and the turn. I don't know whether CO or MP are drawing or have a J (they wouldn't raise with a Jack, except AJ)
Is this a good line?


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP folds, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd raise preflop.

On the river, you aren't going to induce a bluff often against a passive, and they will check through worse hands. So when they bet the river, it's more likely you're toast.

The upside to checking is that they may check through weak jacks.

I would bet the river, and let them call with their weaker hands and fold their busted flush draw. It's close.

[zephed56]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">Opponents are passive calling stations.</font>
I think the preflop call/raise is debatable. I think I'm better off C/R-ing the flops that hit me, than betting all the way against 3 players.
This time I think it's very possible I'm ahead, so I bet the flop and the turn. I don't know whether CO or MP are drawing or have a J (they wouldn't raise with a Jack, except AJ)
Is this a good line?



[/ QUOTE ]
No, this should be an easy preflop raise. They probably have one overcard to your hand. (they limp with all kinds of high/low hands, and low-medium connectors)

It does make your opponents harder to read, because you usually end up betting OOP all the way with them just calling, but they do that anyways.

Re: completing preflop and check-raising a good flop:
I don't think it's a great strategy because they are so passive. You'll whiff a large percentage of the time at this level. There goes the EV you gave up preflop. When they do bet, they usually have a decent hand too.

My default is to bet when I have a hand unless I have good reason to checkraise. That means a player who is betting when checked to, someone who will always bet when checked to on the button, or an aggressive player.

[JrJordan]

PF call isn't debatebale, the call is plain awful. You're up against a bazillion people, so raise this for value. The rest of the hand I like your line though. The calling station read makes me think that he could have a J on the river, but your odds are good enough to make the call.

[Surfbullet]

Raise preflop for value - these guys limp with anything and everything.

Bet the river, you'll get paid by very weak hands, sometimes even an A-high busted draw calling to keep you "honest." They'll check through all the hands that would have paid you, and will fail to punish you with many hands (almost all jacks, i've even seen QQ here) that beat you. They are super-passive so fold to a raise.

Surf

[naphand]

[ QUOTE ]
The calling station read makes me think that he could have a J on the river...

[/ QUOTE ]

The calling station read makes ME think he could have a J, 7, 2, overs or PP lower than a J.

The question is, what proportion of the time does he have a Jack? Given what happened, I would ask yourself how many times you have bet overcards/draws into the table and check/folded a missed River, or called with AK or less than TP? They may be bad, but even calling stations will make this bet quite a lot of the time as they assume you were betting the flush draw and missed. The River bet is less likely at $1/$2 from any pair esp. very passive players but does happen quite a lot esp. if you have been at the table a while and have an aggressive image.

1 un-scary overcard to your PP, no raises. Get into the habit of making it to SD esp. when people are folding out on each street.

[HesseJam]

[quote
The calling station read makes ME think he could have a J, 7, 2, overs or PP lower than a J.

The question is, what proportion of the time does he have a Jack? Given what happened, I would ask yourself how many times you have bet overcards/draws into the table and check/folded a missed River, or called with AK or less than TP? They may be bad, but even calling stations will make this bet quite a lot of the time as they assume you were betting the flush draw and missed. The River bet is less likely at $1/$2 from any pair esp. very passive players but does happen quite a lot esp. if you have been at the table a while and have an aggressive image.

1 un-scary overcard to your PP, no raises. Get into the habit of making it to SD esp. when people are folding out on each street.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds good to me, esp. the "they assume you have missed the flush draw" part.