I got berated at the table for this...... [Archive]

View Full Version : I got berated at the table for this......

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 08:08 PM

....care to join in?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero caps!!!!!!!

mungpo

04-25-2005, 08:12 PM

I wouldn't make this call preflop and would call his 3-bet.

TStoneMBD

04-25-2005, 08:16 PM

preflop is good if they are fish.

flop is a megaeasy cap.

RollingRockMike

04-25-2005, 08:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
....care to join in?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero caps!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
You should probably fold preflop but flop play is fairly standard.

Mike

nut case ace

04-25-2005, 08:23 PM

I think this is a fine play. you might just call the third bet and wait to see if you improve on the turn. Your opponent's 3rd bet means that he's probably got the goods and will at least call you down unless he's on a draw, but unless you have some reads on this guy, he's got a hand. I personally like this play more when you dont have top pair because that way when the other person is betting a better top pair, you are actually ahead by a bit. In this case, if he has A7, that kills 3 of your outs and you're behind. Anyway, the play is fine and you're still ahead of an overpair. The decision between calling the 3-bet and capping really depends on your read on this guy and what you want your table image to be.

festis_jr

04-25-2005, 08:24 PM

I wouldnt call preflop but postflop play is alright...

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 08:37 PM

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The decision between calling the 3-bet and capping really depends on your read on this guy and what you want your table image to be.

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Not capping here is awful, regardless of read.

chief444

04-25-2005, 08:41 PM

I see you're loosening up some preflop. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Nice hand.

nut case ace

04-25-2005, 08:41 PM

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The decision between calling the 3-bet and capping really depends on your read on this guy and what you want your table image to be.

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Not capping here is awful, regardless of read.

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ok, so if you knew this guy was a total rock and would only 3-bet like this with a straight or a set, you'd still cap?

purnell

04-25-2005, 08:48 PM

The preflop call is not always terrible, it depends on the nature of your opponents. Good play postflop, without question. If you win the pot at showdown and villain berates you, don't educate him. My favorite response is "What's a flop?" (or turn, or check-raise, or whatever).

brazilio

04-25-2005, 08:59 PM

plz cap flop every time, thanks. I'm not playing that preflop, think that's awfully weak.

brazilio

04-25-2005, 09:02 PM

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The decision between calling the 3-bet and capping really depends on your read on this guy and what you want your table image to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not capping here is awful, regardless of read.

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ok, so if you knew this guy was a total rock and would only 3-bet like this with a straight or a set, you'd still cap?

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Dude, you could have a 3% VP$IP rock with a 0% pfr and a negative AF after 5000 hands, and I still wouldn't be able to put him on a straight or set.

27offsooot

04-25-2005, 09:19 PM

I think you're overcompensating PF. Don't let the LAGs on this forum push u around. Flop is standard.

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 09:23 PM

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ok, so if you knew this guy was a total rock and would only 3-bet like this with a straight or a set, you'd still cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he SHOWED me the straight, I'd still cap.

Justin A

04-25-2005, 09:27 PM

Preflop is a stretch, should be folding there, but it's not a big mistake.

KDawgCometh

04-25-2005, 09:29 PM

like it says in sshe, a weak preflop play can be made up for by strongf postflop play. I like how you played it. actually, I'm kinda surprised you played this PF since I think your one of the tighter players on this board. cool

CallMeIshmael

04-25-2005, 09:33 PM

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ok, so if you knew this guy was a total rock and would only 3-bet like this with a straight or a set, you'd still cap?

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If he SHOWED me the straight, I'd still cap.

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You're exagerating, right?

iluzion

04-25-2005, 09:35 PM

Seeing as you got berated, I will assume you won the hand with the flush, but regardless, I like the flop cap.

CallMeIshmael

04-25-2005, 09:37 PM

I would fold prelfop. But its probably not that much of a mistake, if it is one (against certain players this is probably +EV)

Easy cap on the flop

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 09:37 PM

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ok, so if you knew this guy was a total rock and would only 3-bet like this with a straight or a set, you'd still cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he SHOWED me the straight, I'd still cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're exagerating, right?

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no.

PokerBob

04-25-2005, 09:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
like it says in sshe, a weak preflop play can be made up for by strongf postflop play. I like how you played it. actually, I'm kinda surprised you played this PF since I think your one of the tighter players on this board. cool

[/ QUOTE ]

I am trying to change my ways (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2240967&page=1&view=e xpanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=)

KDawgCometh

04-25-2005, 09:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
like it says in sshe, a weak preflop play can be made up for by strongf postflop play. I like how you played it. actually, I'm kinda surprised you played this PF since I think your one of the tighter players on this board. cool

[/ QUOTE ]

I am trying to change my ways (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2240967&page=1&view=e xpanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=)

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

CallMeIshmael

04-25-2005, 09:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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ok, so if you knew this guy was a total rock and would only 3-bet like this with a straight or a set, you'd still cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he SHOWED me the straight, I'd still cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're exagerating, right?

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no.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just reread the hand.

I thought it was heads up when you capped.

Still, 3 way, the cap is probably close to neutral ev or slightly -EV. (you are getting 2-1 on your money, and 1.9-1 to come in... but that assumes you win 100% of the time you hit a flush)

brazilio

04-25-2005, 09:42 PM

Then cap and take your possible free turn. I think calling the 3-bet is by far the worst option, either check/call the flop because people aren't going to have much incentive to stay in, or cap it when it gets 3-bet and he's got position.

CallMeIshmael

04-25-2005, 09:43 PM

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Then cap and take your free turn.

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not going to happen.

brazilio

04-25-2005, 09:46 PM

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Then cap and take your free turn.

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not going to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

It should if he's got an overpair.

CallMeIshmael

04-25-2005, 09:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It should if he's got an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

PBob and I are discussing when we know he has a straight 100% of the time he 3-bets.

I say the cap is very close to neutral EV or slightly -EV in that spot.

brazilio

04-25-2005, 09:50 PM

o sry

evilganz

04-25-2005, 10:57 PM

Easy cap, with a favorite to improve to 2 pair or better. Sure, sometimes they have a bigger flush draw, but so what? You're ahead of aces! And if someone has a set, there's less risk than usual of the board pairing to make both your hands (since the 7D is already spoken for), which removes one of your disaster scenarios.

If you're not capping this, you're either playing scared, or need to bone up on your odds.

Harv72b

04-26-2005, 12:00 AM

If anyone even considers not capping the flop 3-handed with TP+flush draw, they need to reevaluate their choice of hobbies. Just my opinion, but hey...

Re: preflop call. I play fairly loose preflop, especially from LP, but this is a hand I would fold unless I was up against some very bad opponents. From the button I might/maybe limp it behind 2 limpers, but I don't really like it from the CO. I'm just not a big fan of suited 3-gappers, especially when the top card is only a jack. I don't think it's a terrible limp, and the postflop play certainly justifies limping a borderline hand from LP, but it's not a call I'd usually make.

TStoneMBD

04-26-2005, 12:14 AM

ishmael, there are 2 players in the hand.

if it was heads up and you knew the opponent had a straight, you would not cap the flop unless you could get a free card a reasonable amount of time.

however, 3 handed, if you knew both of the opponents hands and saw that your pot equity is 33%, you could cap just for the hell of it while your equity would be neutral.

in the long run, top pair with a jack high flush draw has far more than 33% equity in a 3 way pot. that is why you cap. not only are you building equity but you are also positioning yourself for a free card.

CallMeIshmael

04-26-2005, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if it was heads up and you knew the opponent had a straight, you would not cap the flop unless you could get a free card a reasonable amount of time.

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again, that isnt going to happen

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however, 3 handed, if you knew both of the opponents hands and saw that your pot equity is 33%, you could cap just for the hell of it while your equity would be neutral.

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Im aware of this.

My contention is that he doesnt have a 33% equity when he KNOWS that villian has a straight.

If the 3rd party has nothing bad a BD flush:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 35.0683 % [ 00.34 00.01 ] { Js7s }
Hand 2: 58.2687 % [ 00.54 00.04 ] { 4h3d }
Hand 3: 06.6630 % [ 00.03 00.04 ] { As3h }

The cap is +EV, slightly.

The problem I see is that like 5% of the time (5 = estimate... I dont know the real number), PBob has like 0 EV in this hand, because the third party has a bigger flush draw.

Also, we dont know if the other villian isnt "slowplaying" a set. This could be like 3% of the time or so. This cuts into our equity as well.

A flush draw is what, 1.9-1? That means, that for the cap to be +EV (when we KNOW there is a straight out there) then we have to win a very large portion of the time our flush gets there.

(of course, we have a BD full house draw to help)

[ QUOTE ]

in the long run, top pair with a jack high flush draw has far more than 33% equity in a 3 way pot. that is why you cap. not only are you building equity but you are also positioning yourself for a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this is the portion of the thread where villian shows us a straight.

Capping is megaeasy without being shown the straight.

Chairman Wood

04-26-2005, 12:55 PM

Awesome

Chairman Wood

04-26-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
would call his 3-bet

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No

flair1239

04-26-2005, 01:08 PM

I like the whole thing. I would love it if there were reads, and you were on the button.

The flop is standard as far as I am concerned.

frank_iii

04-26-2005, 02:49 PM

What exactly did they berate you for?

Raising preflop would have been really manly.

Raise preflop. Beat a flopped straight with a rivered flush. Hilarity ensues.

PokerBob

04-26-2005, 03:19 PM

When the turn hit, UTG typed in "I think you capped your draw", and then folded. After the hand he said, "Keep capping your draws." I giggled.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero caps, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP3 calls.

River: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results in white below: 
MP3 has 5c 8s (one pair, fives).
Hero has 7d Jd (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.50 BB.

alul

04-26-2005, 03:40 PM

Well, he's not bad. UTG I mean. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TStoneMBD

04-26-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
however, 3 handed, if you knew both of the opponents hands and saw that your pot equity is 33%, you could cap just for the hell of it while your equity would be neutral.

[/ QUOTE ]

notice i put a little disclaimer in there.

CallMeIshmael

04-26-2005, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
however, 3 handed, if you knew both of the opponents hands and saw that your pot equity is 33%, you could cap just for the hell of it while your equity would be neutral.

[/ QUOTE ]

notice i put a little disclaimer in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh... I missed that

Yes, if both of your opponents turned over their hands, and our equity is > 33+, I like the cap.

jskills

04-26-2005, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
....care to join in?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero caps!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
You should probably fold preflop but flop play is fairly standard.

Mike

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Jules22

04-26-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
....care to join in?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero caps!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
You should probably fold preflop but flop play is fairly standard.

Mike

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