The conscience factor

[rr2000]

This is a question to long-term poker winners. After having won a lot of money, have you ever got the thought that you have exploited people and made money? I think that's the way to call it - exploitation. Simply target the poor players and extract their money out.
I have posted some winnings recently (have been playing for few months) and beginning to get such thoughts. I don't know what my conscience will do to me if suppose the winnings grow a lot and I start to make a living out of it. How to overcome this?
I know this is a strange question, but would appreciate your responses /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[HDPM]

This is a question that does not depend on someone's poker track record but their outlook. I have thought about this issue some because I am sensitive to other people's misery, and the philosphical questions involving morality, freedom, and the like. In the end you must realize that the most precious thing we have is freedom of action. The person who sits at the poker table and chooses to lose, even if it costs them everything that you would value in life, has as much right to make that choice as you have to choose to win. You do not have the right to tell him he must win or to patronize him, just as he has no right to tell you that you have to lose all your money. By feeling sorry for him and patronizing him, if only in attitude, spirit, and philosophy, you are robbing him of his individuality and his freedom. You take away his humanity. It is not appropriate to do that. Play hard, take his money if the game allows. If you choose to help him outside the game because you value what he has to offer (by buying him a meal, etc...) do that. Or don't. You have absolutely no obligation to help him. By agreeing to play somebody, you are not exploiting them. If you cannot get over this you should quit poker for good. The whole idea is to break the weak players. They know it and choose to play for their own reasons. And their own reasons are valid for them.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

The way to win money at poker consistently is to play with weaker opponents, period. If you feel uncomfortable when taking people's money, then poker is not for you. As you move up in limit, it becomes crystal clear that poker is a predatory activity. I am quite sure that nobody loses sleep over taking a few of my chips. I am also sure that I lose no sleep over taking a few chips. LGPG, Babe

[Mark H]

I have a couple of thoughts it seems a lot of people play for intertainment. I think your providing a service. Sports,actors,singers, and artist dont add any more to society than entertainment. I always try to be friendly, a few jokes or one liners seem to lighten up the table if most players have a good time i dont see anything wrong with taking money for it. I also think their going to spend their entertainment dollars some place why not on me. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Dwayne]

I too felt a little guilty after fleecing some of the regulars (senior citizen types). But then I realized that these people are all long-term losers. Their money is going to end up in somebody's wallet tonight; it may as well be mine. Besides, these people are not my friends. They would bust me out in a minute if they could. It would not bother them one bit to see me sleeping under a bridge somewhere.

I agree with Mark H. The folks who end up losing are paying for their entertainment. Yes, some people make the poor choice of betting the farm; however, it is intuitive that every privilege will have its abusers. The presence of abusers does not inherently necessitate revoking the privilege; the moral rhetoric used by many who disagree with this is shallow and rather sanctimonious. This philosophy is firmly entrenched in Western culture - for instance, we do not outlaw alcohol solely because some people drink themselves to death. Likewise, we enthusiastically support the state Lotto, though its financial burden is verifiably placed on those who can afford it the least.

And as far as the "value to society" argument... well, we can deal with that in a separate thread /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Last I checked, nobody who has sat at a poker table with me has had a gun pointed at their head. When you choose to play, you accept the responsibility for both losing and winning. But, then again, I cheer for the big cats on nature shows. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

[HDPM]

"I too felt a little guilty after fleecing some of the regulars (senior citizen types)"

Seniors are the least sympathetic. I just figure they are on Social Security and Medicare, thus stealing my money by force. They are also AARP members probably, so they lobby to tax me to death and take away my rights. Then they drive their infernal motor homes and fifth wheels 15 MPH on 2 lane roads to get back from their winter jaunt. I feel much sorrier for young losers. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif /forums/images/icons/wink.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Ulysses]

I'm a winning recreational poker player, mainly at 6-12 and some 15-30. It's crystal clear to me, however, that there are many players where I play who are far superior to me right now. It's clear that on the me vs. them ledger, they are ahead.

So, how do I stay a winning player? I consistently beat novices out for entertainment, degenerate gamblers who have no idea what they're doing, and players like me who I'm just that much better than.

If I didn't "take advantage" of those who I have a clear advantage over, I would be a break-even or losing player.

When I first started playing, I felt a little sad when I busted out nice, but pathetic (you know how I mean that) players. They'd be really crushed. Then I noticed that someone always busts them, so it's not a question of if, but when and who.

I also used to feel bad when I had the nuts and they had the second nuts and we kept raising back and forth until they were all-in. Until I realized the obvious - when they think they're ahead, they never slow down, so why should we?

I do think that there's much more to life than poker, so if you feel bad enough that this really affects you emotionally, I'd suggest playing less until you feel better about it.

[ripdog]

I've had an attack of conscience once, but I got over it. I was emptying my best friends pockets at the poker table and I knew he couldn't afford it (he was a true maniac and never slowed down). I came to realize later that if he wasn't pissing his money away to me, he'd have been pissing it away somewhere else. So my wife and I treat his family for dinner a lot when we visit them. I don't feel bad for him anymore. His life is one poor decision after another and there isn't a thing I can do about it. As for taking pity on some stranger, well, I don't. They're sitting at the table with the purpose of taking my stack in mind. Yes, I target the weak players, but I try to be nice about it. Getting a conscience at the poker table...maybe Mason can write an essay about that.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The more I think about it, the more this thread is related to the thread below on hating an opponent. Both introduce emotion into poker. Don't do it. Too much emotion is the enemy of any competitive endeavor. You need to remain detached.

[brad]

the real crises of conscience is when you have to ask yourself ' why do i deserve to win?, or do i deserve to win?'.

when you can answer that and think about it then things like bad beats and running bad shouldnt really stress you out. i mean, poker is poker.

[Vehn]

The question of "(Why) do I deserve to win?" is interesting. I just got back from the card room a minute ago ($8/$16 hold'em). There were 4 EXTREMELY loose players and a few solid/semi-solid ones. The looseys built enormous pots with a ton of chasing and all around terrible play. At the end of hour one I was up ~20 bb. At the end of hour two I was stuck ~5 bb, and man was I unhappy. I was indignent (quietly) that I was losing to these idiots and their garbage hands. But honestly, no one deserves to win. Winning isn't a deserve thing. Let's face it, poker is gambling, no matter how much we like to delude ourselves that it isn't. Winning happens because we study the game, we practice, we think, we read - not because we "deserve".

I took down 3 pots in the next hour and left up 12 bb, and I've never been happier.

[brad]

yeah, part of being an adult is realizing that youre not special.

funny i played the other day and me and the guy next to me kept getting beat by 2 or 3 outers and i turn to him and say that well a lot of times i play bad and win so i guess i cant complain when i play good and lose. heh

The only time I feel guilty is playing against drunks, and I have no qualms about asking the floor person to remove an opponent who is getting out of hand. My husband who is much more serious (and plays much higher limits) refused to play in one of his regular games until they banned a woman who was pregnant with her 4th or 5th kid and pissing away the groceries and rent money at the table.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

This post is stupid. Was it her 4th or 5th kid? Do you even know? How did he know it was her grocery money? Did he ask, or make an assumption?

If I were at that table, and he tried to have her removed, I would have told him to mind his own %$#% business. Who is he, the fish police? For all you know, she could have won the lottery the day before, or hit a progressive slot jackpot. Or even if he was right, who forced her to sit there.

I'm sorry, but this struck a nerve. There are enough people out there in the political arena trying to jam their morality down our throats. We don't need them coming to poker tables and chasing the losers away. The marging between losing and winning is thin enough as it is.

I'll make it simple, if you are uncomfortable taking a player's money for whatever reason, get up and leave the table. Nobody's forcing them to be there, and nobody's forcing you to be there either. It's not a social club, it's a poker room. I don't feel abused when I lose, and I don't feel guilty when I win.

[HDPM]

Sorry, maybe hubby was the one who should have been banned. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

Seriously, he had no business getting another player barred for perceived incompetence or financial inability.

I should clarify. This was in home game in a small town where everyone knew each other. He didn't get her banned. He just refused to play the game if she was there. And he wasn't the only one. She was "banned" only becuase eventually none of the regulars would play with her anymore. When you see an aquantance who has an obvious gambling problem, and you know her husband, and you know her kids are suffering, it's hard to say "it's her free will. I'll take her money." She's pregnant, up all night, smoking -- it was just a disgusting picture. I was glad the guys refused to play with her.

"Seniors are the least sympathetic. I Just figure they are on Social Security and Medicare, thus stealing my money by force."

I don't know how young (or old) you are but I find it quite annoying to include insulting comments about senior citizens which I find from time to time in these fora. While it is your prerogative to play your opponents in any way, shape, or form you choose, derogatory comments about seniors is totally unnecessary. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

In the places that I play, I find seniors to be congregating in the 2-4 games. Whether they are long term losers, winners, degenerate gamblers or simply recreationals using the poker rooms as their social clubs for entertainment is strictly their own business.

I am in my fifties, (so you cannot count me as a senior citizen yet), play a pretty solid game, and gain respect from my opponents. But if a senior citizen sits in my game of 5-10 to 10-20, then I know that they are there not just to pass the time away and can afford to lose. Then I play them just like anybody else. There is an elderly gentleman close to being senile and hard of hearing who sometimes sit in a 5-10 game. From what I heard from a supervisor, the man is worth millions. His playing moods swing from a calling station to bluffs and playing possum and would sometimes sarcastically thumb his nose if he catches his opponents with a nuts check-raise. When I play this man, I do not hesitate to go for the jugular.

Just stick to poker comments and maybe you'll be a long time winner that you won't depend on social services when you get to be old and gimpy. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[HDPM]

Did you think there was maybe a grain of sarcasm in my post when I railed against 5th wheels going 15 on 2 lane roads? Sorry if I offended you about derogatory comments. Well, not those who are on Social Security and believe it to be an entitlement or AARP members. It is moral to take Social Security as restitution if one is willing to disclaim any right to it in order to prevent ongoing theft from those taxed. As a senior, should I live that long, I will take every cent of Social Security I can get my hands on. But I would vote to get rid of it completely and immediately if given the choice. As to AARP, well, my father is in AARP and I tell him to his face how horrendous AARP is. I am not sorry for offending any AARP members. So to the extent I had derogatory comments that were not humorous enough for you as to seniors who do not have immoral views on taking my money by force, well, sorry. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

When you get to 50, join AARP, like I did last year, and actively lobby them to change their policies, particularly on social security. It's just like with voting. You have to stay active and make noise. Most people toss out their AARP stuff when they're first eligible (denial, denial, denial), thus leaving the organization to be controlled by the 72+ crowd. If more of us who are still in the workforce got involved, we might be able to take back control of our money.

Now back to poker.

[HDPM]

Not a bad idea. I will gladly take AARP literature to cost them money, so maybe you could put me on their mailing list. I have a while until I turn 50, but they should start sending me stuff early.

[HDPM]

I really want to buy a little hotel and put that stupid sign out that says "AARP Rates." Wait until the first senior gets a bill for like $850.00 on a $79.00 room. The senior will then be shown what entitlement programs cost so $850 is really pretty reasonable. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

I felt this same way 25 years ago when I played backgammon alot and would win money I didn't think someone could afford. I started playing mostly tournaments. You could do that with poker too. What I do now at poker is only play rich poeple.

You did not offend me personally but your comment "stealing by force" did not strike me as humorous. I don't think that if there is a poker playing SC lurking on this forum they won't find it funny either. Nah! they're too busy trying to give a bad beat to one another /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif !

Anyway, as for your suggestion of eliminating social security, I wrote about 25 years ago to my local papers' reader's forum (SS tax was about $700/yr then) to make it optional with the intent of leaving it up to the taxpayers to do their investments. And if I retire penniless, so be it, and leave me in a shack in Death Valley. Heck, if it became reality, I would have been retired by now and just playing poker.

Now, next deal! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Hey, dude, don't blame it on the old folks. They've been getting it sucked out of them for 50 years of work. Most of them get less out of the system than they put in. What you should do is have the sign say "Government Employee Rates" and soak the real enemy.

[HDPM]

Yep, if it were optional, I'd have a lot more money and a lot of people would be hurting. Because everyone would opt out and the system would collapse. Which is fine since it will collapse eventually, one way or another.

[Jimbo]

HDPM,

I have my temporary AARP card handy so here is the address:

AARP
601 E Street, NW
Washington, DC 20049

My father and I have very similiar names and they have been sending me membership requests since 1962 when he turned 50. They could use some help in their marketing department!

ps: Tell them I referred you and I get a free scrip of Viagra and an instruction manual.

What the hell? What do you do a credit check before you sit down and play in a live game?

[2ndGoat]

I do have a problem with "its their free will" when children are involved.

IF it were stipulated that she was pregnant with a 4th child

IF it were stipulated that losing that game would prevent her children from having regular meals

that still wouldn't change your minds? I start to feel like this is becoming similar to the argument "why can't I rob? it's my own free will" I'm not saying you're robbing the mother, rather, you're robbing the children. Even IF someone else might take her money.

2ndGoat
(And no, I do not have any children)

I am a borned assassin, no fear, no conscience.

[baggins]

thank you hdpm. you are correct. old people suck. sometimes.