Pushing KQo

[dfscott]

I pushed without thinking twice in the actual game, but now I'm wondering: is KQo good enough to push here? Maybe I'm giving SB and BB too much to call with here (44+, A9+, KJs+), but if you believe that range, ICM says it's a fold. I'm thinking it's because over half the hands that call me will have me dominated.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t930)
MP (t930)
Hero (t1830)
SB (t2020)
BB (t2290)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero ???

[Phoenix1010]

Tough, I think. I actually like raising to 500 with those stacks and a marginal raising hand.

[Scuba Chuck]

With these blinds, and your stack, and the two shorties, you have two effective plays IMO.

1) play weak-tight and fold.
2) Raise to 400-500. Make decisions after that.

[valenzuela]

I dont like the push, why do u want to gamble for T300 you dont need?

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the push, why do u want to gamble for T300 you dont need?

[/ QUOTE ]

don't ever say he doesn't need it! how strong of a hand are you looking to have before you are willing to go allin? I'm more interested in how tight these players are than how set I am with pushing any two cards when its folded to me?

[curtains]

My instincts say to push, (assuming normal players who will be tight here) but I'm not sure if the math backs it up.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the push, why do u want to gamble for T300 you dont need?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, this is a big leak in my game that I've just uncovered: once I get to 8-10 BB, I just keep on pushing with any two, even when I don't need to.

I don't think KQ is strong enough for that here.

Edit: ok, not "any two," but less than stellar holdings.

[curtains]

df this isnt a big leak. Don't be so quick to agree with the first poster that disagrees with your play! I agree it's close but if you were playing against me and Daliman in the blinds for example, pushing would be clearly correct, and it's not close. I suspect however those aren't your two opponents in this hand.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the push, why do u want to gamble for T300 you dont need?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, this is a big leak in my game that I've just uncovered: once I get to 8-10 BB, I just keep on pushing with any two, even when I don't need to.

I don't think KQ is strong enough for that here.

Edit: ok, not "any two," but less than stellar holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

what pocket pair are you pushing here? are you pushing AJs?

[curtains]

Ok I ran it on eastbays program. Against tight players (aka - me), this is a very clear push. Against people who will call with 66+, AJo+ and ATs+, it's STILL a push but very close. Most people shuold be folding 66-77 here and AT anyway.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok I ran it on eastbays program. Against tight players (aka - me), this is a very clear push. Against people who will call with 66+, AJo+ and ATs+, it's STILL a push but very close. Most people shuold be folding 66-77 here and AT anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

just as i suspected. now how much does it cost?

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the push, why do u want to gamble for T300 you dont need?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, this is a big leak in my game that I've just uncovered: once I get to 8-10 BB, I just keep on pushing with any two, even when I don't need to.

I don't think KQ is strong enough for that here.

Edit: ok, not "any two," but less than stellar holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

what pocket pair are you pushing here? are you pushing AJs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably 77+ and A9s+. The problem with KQ is that anyone that calls you is probably ahead.

Edit: I ran it through using the calling ranges in curtains' post. It's +EV for 77+, ATo+, A8s+, KQo+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs+.

I usually count on people being a little looser in the 22s (44+, A7s, A9o, KJs). That tightens up your push hands to 88+, AJ+.

[valenzuela]

my comment was for the $22s.

[curtains]

I don't think folding KQo is terrible here by any means, I just think you jump to conclusions too quickly by calling it a terrible leak in your game.

[valenzuela]

my 670th post!:
-KQ loses a lot of value in lower buyins.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
df this isnt a big leak. Don't be so quick to agree with the first poster that disagrees with your play! I agree it's close but if you were playing against me and Daliman in the blinds for example, pushing would be clearly correct, and it's not close. I suspect however those aren't your two opponents in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate people that say this (I can't beat these loose games, blah, blah), but I think that my style is better suited for the higher levels. I'm hoping that you're right.

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
df this isnt a big leak. Don't be so quick to agree with the first poster that disagrees with your play! I agree it's close but if you were playing against me and Daliman in the blinds for example, pushing would be clearly correct, and it's not close. I suspect however those aren't your two opponents in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate people that say this (I can't beat these loose games, blah, blah), but I think that my style is better suited for the higher levels. I'm hoping that you're right.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh...sigh...just change ur style, grow a bankroll, move up and play with a style u like.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
df this isnt a big leak. Don't be so quick to agree with the first poster that disagrees with your play! I agree it's close but if you were playing against me and Daliman in the blinds for example, pushing would be clearly correct, and it's not close. I suspect however those aren't your two opponents in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate people that say this (I can't beat these loose games, blah, blah), but I think that my style is better suited for the higher levels. I'm hoping that you're right.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh...sigh...just change ur style, grow a bankroll, move up and play with a style u like.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, I know... I just have to start winning so my BR will actually move in the right direction for a change. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[1C5]

My style does better in the 22s than the 10s I think so you are not the only one. Will let you know how it works in the 30s and 50 soon hopefully. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

PS, sat with you at a table last night or the night before, I busted out in round one with trip Ks to a A high flush. What a fish I am. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

Its marginal, but IMO unless the SB and BB are tricky i think raising to 500 right here might make you even more money. You have a strong hand 3 way and position to outplay either of them on a flop. Unless they are really aggressive they wont reraise all in and push you off of your hand without having you dominated.

[valenzuela]

NOT THIS AGAIN! Maybe you have more balls in the 22s because u say " we respects me!", I think u have a feeling which makes u believe u can have higher ROI in the 22s than in the 11s so you play better in the 22s.

[microbet]

You're making a very big push here. You have a lotta chips and both blinds have a lotta chips. I think they will be fairly tight. If you just get rid of the A9 calls, you are +$EV. I think you will usually get a fold out of AT too.

I think people are funny about PPs. If they love PPs they will call with 22, but if they aren't they will probably fold up to 88 or even higher. Split the diff and I think you are pretty safely +$EV, but still not huge.

[Degen]

I disagree with those who say this is a fold. This is bubble time, this is chip magnet time.

The only way I fold this is if i went all-in the previous three hands and one of them had me sucking out with 6 2.

In the 22's and 33's I like pushing here. In the 55's and 109's i like making it 3XBB.

This is not a leak.


Andre

[prepotency]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually count on people being a little looser in the 22s (44+, A7s, A9o, KJs). That tightens up your push hands to 88+, AJ+.[/i]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're not giving 22 players enough credit. I mean, we can look down on them and bash them all they want but no one who plays poker even decently well is going to being calling on those ranges given these chip sizes. I mean there isn't a huge chip leader or anything here.

As for the original post, I just don't think you're wanting to risk your whole stack when the two chip leaders are in the blinds. Take a step back from all the math: you don't need this hand or their blinds. You have time to wait for something better like AJ+

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually count on people being a little looser in the 22s (44+, A7s, A9o, KJs). That tightens up your push hands to 88+, AJ+.[/i]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're not giving 22 players enough credit. I mean, we can look down on them and bash them all they want but no one who plays poker even decently well is going to being calling on those ranges given these chip sizes. I mean there isn't a huge chip leader or anything here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I look down on them? I'm one! In any case, I'm not so sure about this. I've seen some pretty crazy calls.

This is certainly not a representative sample, but I took a random sample based on tourneys I played tonight. These are the hands of people with at least t1000, calling an all-in bet of at least t1000, on level 5 with at least 5 people left:

KJo
A8o
A2s
AJs
99
QTo
KJs
AJo
AKs

While there are plenty of quality hands here, there are definitely some questionable ones as well.

[microbet]

Nice post. Does anyone know where there is a lot of this type of data? Some eight-tabling 150 SNG a day'ers ought to be able to pull together a bunch.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice post. Does anyone know where there is a lot of this type of data? Some eight-tabling 150 SNG a day'ers ought to be able to pull together a bunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I was pulling this data, I thought the same thing. I imagine it wouldn't be that hard to write something to spin through HH (or PT data) and figure it out.

[microbet]

can't elaborate - playing - but I was just in a game on the bubble - big stack, but not really big - called allins - no pot odds arguments, not from tiny stacks - with 85, 64 and 24. One or two were sooted.

[Ryendal]

[ QUOTE ]
This is certainly not a representative sample, but I took a random sample based on tourneys I played tonight. These are the hands of people with at least t1000, calling an all-in bet of at least t1000, on level 5 with at least 5 people left:

KJo
A8o
A2s
AJs
99
QTo
KJs
AJo
AKs

While there are plenty of quality hands here, there are definitely some questionable ones as well.


[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Nice post. Does anyone know where there is a lot of this type of data? Some eight-tabling 150 SNG a day'ers ought to be able to pull together a bunch.


[/ QUOTE ]
Well that would be an amazing stuff to have such stats.
And to have theses stats for each different buy-ins ...

Some people interested ?