AQ early facing re-raise

[dfscott]

I'm not sure what to do with this hand. I feel like folding this in CO is criminal. But I didn't want to go all-in, since I didn't think it was worth it for 75 chips (even though that is 10% of my stack). The button was the worst one to re-raise me, since I'm still pot-committed against him, but have to use of the majority of my stack to call.

Thoughts?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t570)
MP2 (t935)
Hero (t655)
Button (t470)
SB (t365)
BB (t1495)
UTG (t2635)
UTG+1 (t875)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t470 (All-in)</font>, Hero calls t320.

[Maulik]

what is CO, I always thought CO &amp; button were synonomous?

[syphlix]

any reads on button?

i think i call this praying that he doesn't have AA KK QQ AQ... i don't like to call.. but it seems like u should.. you're getting what... 2.5:1 odds or soemthing like that?...

i guess call and hope he's pushing around w/ AJ AT or worse /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

what is this?... a 22?

[syphlix]

[ QUOTE ]
what is CO, I always thought CO &amp; button were synonomous?

[/ QUOTE ]

CO = cutoff = the spot before button...

[ColdestCall]

There wasn't really anything else to do here. Anything less than a standard raise with AQ in the cutoff after it is folded to you is weak, IMO, and there isn't really much point in raising more. You are getting sufficient odds to call the reraise. If button has AA, KK, QQ, or AK, well, that sucks and you will probably lose (although you will still have some chips left). However, button will not have those hands often enough that the price the pot is laying you will be sufficient to compensate you for those times that he does. So, you call, and, presumably, you lost. Couldn't have been avoided.

[Bigwig]

Easy, easy, call. Seriously, folding this is horrible.

[Maulik]

I'm interested to know how you react to a raise or a push from the BB who has (t1495). based on that, then decide how to play this hand accordingly.

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t570)
MP2 (t935)
Hero (t655)
Button (t470)
SB (t365)
BB (t1495)
UTG (t2635)
UTG+1 (t875)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t470 (All-in)</font>, Hero calls t320.

[/ QUOTE ]

[pooh74]

greater than 2:1 you're getting!!! How could you not call this?

[Bigwig]

I would also call a BB push. Pot odds are just too good. When you get AQ four handed (which is what this effectively is), a the range of hands that most people reraise are on the average still behind AQ.

[pooh74]

w/o a read, an allin from the BB would be closer to break even maybe...but I think its still a call.

OP's hand is instacall.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
greater than 2:1 you're getting!!! How could you not call this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, when I was considering folding, I meant folding pre-flop. I don't think there's any way I fold after the re-raise all-in.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
I would also call a BB push.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is indeed the plan, then hero needs to push.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, when I was considering folding, I meant folding pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

F*** no!

[Scuba Chuck]

Let's take the thinking man's approach.

Button is desperate. He has less than 10xBB remaining. IMO, these guys are going to take the next best hand and push it. Now, if villain was first in the pot, I'd put his hand range very wide, but since you entered first, his range is narrow, IMO.

Here's my Hand range:
AJs+, 77+, KQs

AQo has 40% equity against that range. There is t695 in the pot, and t320 to call. Pot odds are 2.17:1 to call. You're pot committed.

[tech]

If your plan is to call an all-in reraise from any of the remaining players, why not just push? It's not like you are just hoping and praying for a call here.

[Maulik]

My intution is telling me to straight push if you are willing to call an allin for the rest of your stack from the BB. Its better to be the aggressor, take the blinds and not play the flop. You shouldn't given them a reason to consier re-raising.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would also call a BB push.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is indeed the plan, then hero needs to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. Pushing 655 chips into a 150 pot narrows the range of hands that will call. Yes, they'd reraise your 150 anyway. However, you'll get pushed back at by lessor hands and called by lessor hands just raising to 150.

Who's afraid of postflop? I welcome it. I'll outplay 90% of them every day of the week.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
My intution is telling me to straight push if you are willing to call an allin for the rest of your stack from the BB. Its better to be the aggressor, take the blinds and not play the flop. You shouldn't given them a reason to consier re-raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to say, once again, that you have AQ four handed.

That's four handed.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If your plan is to call an all-in reraise from any of the remaining players, why not just push?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct, although I'm sure OP had not intended to call an allin reraise from BB. In fact, I would probably fold to an allin reraise from BB here. Unless these guys are that laggy, my hand range for him is AK/pair.

[Maulik]

I want to see whose in favor of a push and whose in favor of the tripling of the blinds?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
This is correct,

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If you had AA, you'd also call an all-in. You shoving all 655 in with AA? KK? QQ?

There's a line to be drawn with shoving more than 9 or 10BB's into the pot preflop. This line shifts with position, players left to act, and hand strength.

This is AQ, four handed. AQ four handed is stronger than QQ at a full table.

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
greater than 2:1 you're getting!!! How could you not call this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, when I was considering folding, I meant folding pre-flop. I don't think there's any way I fold after the re-raise all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you're just kidding around, right?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your plan is to call an all-in reraise from any of the remaining players, why not just push?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct, although I'm sure OP had not intended to call an allin reraise from BB. In fact, I would probably fold to an allin reraise from BB here. Unless these guys are that laggy, my hand range for him is AK/pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your range if YOU were him...this is the 22s. Although i tend to agree, the overlay there is not as good and the range is tighter...would be a very marginal call.

DFscott,

in your response to me about folding...I didnt realize u meant preflop...in which case all i have to say is...WHAT?!?

that's bad too...U might be on a weak streak. Ive been there often after suffering many bad beats etc...im afraid to be agressive with good holdings...dont know if thats the case here but this seems like a standard play to me and all the ppl yet to act, u got the one i want to see reraising here...jump for joy.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would also call a BB push.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is indeed the plan, then hero needs to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. Pushing 655 chips into a 150 pot narrows the range of hands that will call. Yes, they'd reraise your 150 anyway. However, you'll get pushed back at by lessor hands and called by lessor hands just raising to 150.

Who's afraid of postflop? I welcome it. I'll outplay 90% of them every day of the week.

[/ QUOTE ]

You won't be playing postflop against the button or SB. They don't have enough chips to just call here.

The BB could call. If by "outplay", you mean "push on any flop", then I guess that counts.

Either way, there's not going to be a lot of play after this flop.

I'd probably raise to 150 and push on almost any flop.

However, I don't really don't think straight pushing is that bad. If either short stack has a hand, we'll be allin either way.

[Bigwig]

I don't think straight pushing is that bad either. I'm just challenging the all-in with 13BB line. I'm welcoming action on my AQ here. Not running from it.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
This is AQ, four handed. AQ four handed is stronger than QQ at a full table.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this statement. And you keep saying it. You're implying that because all the previous hands have folded, and there's just 4 left, that this is a 4 handed game. The problem I have with this statement is that if it were truly a 4 handed game, there would be no dead cards. How many queens or aces may have been folded prior to this hand is different than knowing that the probability they all are live is the difference.

Furthermore, I assume you mean QQ with 9 left to act is weaker than AQ with 3 left to act. This statement may be true, I've never considered it.

But how do you apply that same logic to this scenario when there are dead cards involved?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this statement. And you keep saying it. You're implying that because all the previous hands have folded, and there's just 4 left, that this is a 4 handed game. The problem I have with this statement is that if it were truly a 4 handed game, there would be no dead cards. How many queens or aces may have been folded prior to this hand is different than knowing that the probability they all are live is the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I once made a thread about the dead card issue in this forum because I was thinking the way you do. The consensus was that it's not an important factor. Anyway, the deck would theoretically have MORE A's &amp; Q's, not less, because these are cards that are often in limpers hands, and nobody limped.

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, I assume you mean QQ with 9 left to act is weaker than AQ with 3 left to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
[ QUOTE ]
But how do you apply that same logic to this scenario when there are dead cards involved?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this, Chuck. You don't know the dead cards. It's unusable information, one way or the other.

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]

that's bad too...U might be on a weak streak. Ive been there often after suffering many bad beats etc...im afraid to be agressive with good holdings...

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be the case here. I sat (unintentially) to his left at a table the other day and it SUCKED. Evey time I thought I might get a steal in, he pushed right before me. I couldn't believe he didn't get called down.

This is my favorite quote of the day:

[ QUOTE ]
If by "outplay", you mean "push on any flop", then I guess that counts.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Voltron87]

This raise with AQ after it is folded to you is good. I wouldn't raise if there are limpers, but otherwise it is good. Obviously you're calling the all in.

[Luke]

I like the initial 3x BB bet, as a larger raise may deter weaker hands that you're a coin flip with or ahead of from playing with you, but you'll still have to call all-ins from the button and SB when they end up having big hands that dominate AQ.

After the button pushes, you're closing the action, getting 695-320 (~2.2-1) so assuming you have no special concerns about going broke, you need 32% equity or better to call profitably.

Using Pokerstove, I see that you'll have that much equity against even a tight range:

33.3078 % { AQo }
66.6922 % { AA-99, AKs-AQs, AKo }


Of course, as you add other hands to your opponents' range, like AQo, AJ, AT, KQ, smaller pocket pairs, pure bluffs, etc., AQ gains equity VERY quickly:

50.0494 % { AQo }
49.9506 % { AA-66, AKs-ATs, KQs, AKo-ATo, KQo }


So unless you put this guy on an Ultra tight reraising range, you need to call his all-in. But given your positions, his stack size and the fact that this is Party, I think the 2nd (looser) range of hands is closer to reality than the first.

Luke

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. Pushing 655 chips into a 150 pot narrows the range of hands that will call. Yes, they'd reraise your 150 anyway. However, you'll get pushed back at by lessor hands and called by lessor hands just raising to 150.

Who's afraid of postflop? I welcome it. I'll outplay 90% of them every day of the week.

[/ QUOTE ]



Ok first off, any postflop action isn't a spot where you can seriously "outplay" your opponent. Your only goal here is to win the blinds, and or get someone to go allin with a dominated hand, yet fold with coinflip hands.

When you make a normal raise you may convince someone to move allin with a pocket pair, whom would have otherwise folded. The question is whether or not you convince the same person to make a move with A9. People seem to generally dislike allin here, but I don't think it's so bad. These PartyPoker players don't need any convincing to shove their chips in with 44, and I sure don't want to help them do it.

Of course raising to 150 is the normal play, and there is no way to get off the hand if reraised. I'd say that a smaller raise convinces more people with weak aces and KQ to continue as compared to convincing pocket pairs to play with you. However I think it's reasonably close, especially since you usually want to avoid close confrontations in sit and gos.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]


I disagree with this statement. And you keep saying it. You're implying that because all the previous hands have folded, and there's just 4 left, that this is a 4 handed game. The problem I have with this statement is that if it were truly a 4 handed game, there would be no dead cards. How many queens or aces may have been folded prior to this hand is different than knowing that the probability they all are live is the difference.

Furthermore, I assume you mean QQ with 9 left to act is weaker than AQ with 3 left to act. This statement may be true, I've never considered it.

But how do you apply that same logic to this scenario when there are dead cards involved?

[/ QUOTE ]


Try to give us some mathemetical reasoning why the dead cards are very important and change the value of hands.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
This raise with AQ after it is folded to you is good. I wouldn't raise if there are limpers, but otherwise it is good. Obviously you're calling the all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are limpers, raising with AQ here should be automatic.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]


I once made a thread about the dead card issue in this forum because I was thinking the way you do. The consensus was that it's not an important factor. Anyway, the deck would theoretically have MORE A's &amp; Q's, not less, because these are cards that are often in limpers hands, and nobody limped.

I don't get this, Chuck. You don't know the dead cards. It's unusable information, one way or the other.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree that dead cards are generally irrelevant, and they are one of those small things in poker that people try to make a much bigger deal out of then they should.

[Phoenix1010]

I think he's referring to Cloutier's "bunching factor," which I don't like to put too much stock in. You have a very small idea of what kinds of hands people are folding, so it shouldn't affect your estimates. There are no dead cards unless you've seen them. It's still random for all intents and purposes.

-Phoenix

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your plan is to call an all-in reraise from any of the remaining players, why not just push?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct, although I'm sure OP had not intended to call an allin reraise from BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's correct, I would've folded to the BB going all-in, and it's another point that I'm wondering about.

Should I fold to the BB's all-in? If not, then I do think that pushing pre-flop is correct.

[curtains]

I know what he's referring to, however since I've never seen any evidence this factor is especially relevant, I figured I'd give Scuba to back up his claims with some math.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

I know what he's referring to, however since I've never seen any evidence this factor is especially relevant, I figured I'd give Scuba to back up his claims with some math.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason already proved the bunching factor is irrelevant because of high/low card combinations. However, at OP's level, every ace is limping the majority of the time, so Mason's rebuttal isn't as applicable.

4 handed, you can say nothing about the deck/cards of players yet to act. 10 handed with 6 folds in a low level SNG, I'd pretty certain the unexposed cards should be ace rich, althought I can't see how one can really apply this.

In OP's case, we could argue that there's a better chance Villain has Ax, but its probably so immaterial its not worth considering.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
If not, then I do think that pushing pre-flop is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I just don't agree in the slightest. Your hand is good enough that a push back could still mean hands that you've got dominated (A9s, AT, AJ, KQ). I think BB will push these often enough that I don't mind inducing a push. If someone has a pp, so be it, you're still getting the odds to call.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If not, then I do think that pushing pre-flop is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I just don't agree in the slightest. Your hand is good enough that a push back could still mean hands that you've got dominated (A9s, AT, AJ, KQ). I think BB will push these often enough that I don't mind inducing a push. If someone has a pp, so be it, you're still getting the odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, this thread is the counterpoint to my snowman thread, where I'm in the villain's seat. I think you're getting at the same thing that curtains was trying to tell me: it's actually ok to raise, get re-raised all-in, and call. I tend to be afraid of that situation and push instead.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If not, then I do think that pushing pre-flop is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I just don't agree in the slightest. Your hand is good enough that a push back could still mean hands that you've got dominated (A9s, AT, AJ, KQ). I think BB will push these often enough that I don't mind inducing a push. If someone has a pp, so be it, you're still getting the odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, this thread is the counterpoint to my snowman thread, where I'm in the villain's seat. I think you're getting at the same thing that curtains was trying to tell me: it's actually ok to raise, get re-raised all-in, and call. I tend to be afraid of that situation and push instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think pushing all-in with AQ here is bad. It's not bad at all. I just think it's slightly less optimal than a 3BB raise. But I would probably push the whole thing if I had 11BB, maybe even 12, if they were getting jacked up in very soon.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

that's bad too...U might be on a weak streak. Ive been there often after suffering many bad beats etc...im afraid to be agressive with good holdings...

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be the case here. I sat (unintentially) to his left at a table the other day and it SUCKED. Evey time I thought I might get a steal in, he pushed right before me. I couldn't believe he didn't get called down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh -- sorry about that -- I had no idea.

However, he's actually correct. I've been amassing big stacks lately on the bubble, just to bust out before ITM. As a result, I've gotten a little tentative in certain situations.

Must've just been having a good run at your table...

[Maulik]

so scott, what do you do here now, if you had to make this play again?

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
so scott, what do you do here now, if you had to make this play again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly? I think I play it the same. I don't really want to risk my entire stack for 75 chips, and I think pushing does that. If I had 100 less chips, I probably would push.

I'm still not sure if I'm folding to an all-in from the BB. My thought when I played it was "fold," but now I think he might put me on a weaker hand and it might be worth calling, but I'm still really not sure (which might be another reason to push).

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so scott, what do you do here now, if you had to make this play again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly? I think I play it the same. I don't really want to risk my entire stack for 75 chips, and I think pushing does that. If I had 100 less chips, I probably would push.

I'm still not sure if I'm folding to an all-in from the BB. My thought when I played it was "fold," but now I think he might put me on a weaker hand and it might be worth calling, but I'm still really not sure (which might be another reason to push).

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to 150 in a 4 handed game with AQo and then folding for your last 500 is terrible IMO.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so scott, what do you do here now, if you had to make this play again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly? I think I play it the same. I don't really want to risk my entire stack for 75 chips, and I think pushing does that. If I had 100 less chips, I probably would push.

I'm still not sure if I'm folding to an all-in from the BB. My thought when I played it was "fold," but now I think he might put me on a weaker hand and it might be worth calling, but I'm still really not sure (which might be another reason to push).

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to 150 in a 4 handed game with AQo and then folding for your last 500 is terrible IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh -- put that way, I see what you mean. So, now I play it like the other side of the 88 hand in the other thread.

I guess now I see why you say I shouldn't have been surprised to see ATs.

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This raise with AQ after it is folded to you is good. I wouldn't raise if there are limpers, but otherwise it is good. Obviously you're calling the all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are limpers, raising with AQ here should be automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you expand on this?

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This raise with AQ after it is folded to you is good. I wouldn't raise if there are limpers, but otherwise it is good. Obviously you're calling the all in.

[/ QUOTE ]


If there are limpers, raising with AQ here should be automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah... I should have read the stacks. If there are limpers I'm pushing.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This raise with AQ after it is folded to you is good. I wouldn't raise if there are limpers, but otherwise it is good. Obviously you're calling the all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are limpers, raising with AQ here should be automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you expand on this?

[/ QUOTE ]



Yes, your hand is very strong, the money in the pot will mean a lot to you if there are limpers, most of the time you will have stronger hands than the limpers, and sometimes they will fold hands that beat you like 22-77, thus you should raise.

[Voltron87]

I think it's pretty easy to play on a short stack, but how do you play it when you have 1200ish and other people have more and pushing is not really an option? That was the scenario I was thinking of when I said raise 3bb or limp behind limpers.

[curtains]

Yeah then it's dependant upon a bunch of factors.