playing two pair

[CaptainNurple]

Is a loose, low-limit game, is it safe to assume that if you flop two pair with no nut low draw, you should routinely muck?

[HopeydaFish]

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Is a loose, low-limit game, is it safe to assume that if you flop two pair with no nut low draw, you should routinely muck?

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That's too generalized of a question, but the answer is "usually". You didn't mention if there were also possibilities of you improving your hand to a straight or a flush. If there are lots of outs available, it changes things. It also depends a lot on your position. It also depends on whether you have top two pair, or bottom two pair.

If I'm holding top two pair after the flop and there is either one or no low cards on the board, and I'm in late position and it gets checked around to me, I'll usually bet to try to win the pot. Betting in this position usually gets you a free card, so you have two more chances to make your boat or to improve in some other way. Betting after the flop also chases out a lot of the other players who might have improved their hands on the turn and/or river. However, if I'm holding two pair and someone makes a pot sized bet into me, I'll almost always fold. The bettor has a set, or a fantastic number of outs to draw to. Chasing in this sort of situation is almost always -EV, so you fold.

[Buzz]

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Is a loose, low-limit game, is it safe to assume that if you flop two pair with no nut low draw, you should routinely muck?

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Cap - No.

But many flopped two pair hands should probably be mucked.

Loose pre-flop does not necessarily equal loose post-flop.

I'm trying to think of a starting hand I would actually be voluntarily playing where I would flop two pair and a no-nut low draw. Ac3c4dKd with a flop of AdKh8c maybe? I think I would generally want to see another card.

But with a hand of Ac3c4dTd, a flop of Ah3hJs, facing a double bet, and with tough opponents, flopped two pair doesn't look very good.

There are a lot of variables involved.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[gergery]

It depends – there are too many variables to say based just on this.

How big is pot?
How many opponents?
How likely are they to fold/raise?
How scary is the board (how likely are straights, flushes, lows, better two pair by river)?
How strong is your two pair (low pair with board paired? Bottom two pair? Or top two pair that are high ranking?)

KQ in hand on a board of KQ4 rainbow with 1 opponent is a very strong hand
87 in hand on a board of T87 with two hearts and 4 opponents is worthless

--Greg

[CaptainNurple]

Thanks for the replies. I realize it's a rather broad question. It was prompted by my general observation that if you assume it's going to take the nuts to win (and, of course, it usually does in a loose game), and there's either

1) One or no low cards on the flop, or
2) You're not holding the nut low draw,

then it seems to me that it's extremely difficult to have good enough pot odds to chase the full house. You only have 4 outs to make your boat, and the pot is rarely laying you such good odds (since you've only got what, a 9% chance of hitting your boat on each successive card?).

Greg's comment about KQ in hand with KQ4 on board being a strong hand is actually a good illustration of what I'm talking about. It seems to me like I've invested more money in hands like that than I've gotten back, because by the river someone often has at least a set.

In other words, even in the above example, your two-pair will never be the nuts. Anyone with a pocket pair on the board is beating you, so it then becomes a difficult situation. Namely: playing a non-nut hand in a game that is purportedly "all about the nuts."

I'd be interested to hear comments/critiques on the issue.

[gergery]

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Greg's comment about KQ in hand with KQ4 on board being a strong hand is actually a good illustration of what I'm talking about. It seems to me like I've invested more money in hands like that than I've gotten back, because by the river someone often has at least a set.


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I selected that example very specifically for a reason. With the other card on board of a 4, it is relatively unlikely that your opponents will play 44xx. Only an A coming gives someone a chance to beat your two pair with better two pair. You cannot be up against a 17+ card wrap. To be able to continue and have you in trouble, they need KK/QQ/44/KQJT -- very specific hands that need cards you already have. And, you are almost never drawing dead. also i mentioned vs. only 1 opponent.

[HopeydaFish]

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Greg's comment about KQ in hand with KQ4 on board being a strong hand is actually a good illustration of what I'm talking about. It seems to me like I've invested more money in hands like that than I've gotten back, because by the river someone often has at least a set.


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I selected that example very specifically for a reason. With the other card on board of a 4, it is relatively unlikely that your opponents will play 44xx. Only an A coming gives someone a chance to beat your two pair with better two pair. You cannot be up against a 17+ card wrap. To be able to continue and have you in trouble, they need KK/QQ/44/KQJT -- very specific hands that need cards you already have. And, you are almost never drawing dead. also i mentioned vs. only 1 opponent.

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It's also important to note that with a hand like the one mentioned above, you should be raising after the flop (especially in late position). This will either chase everyone or almost everyone out of the pot, or will at least give you a good indication of where you stand. If you get callers, and an A, T, or J hits on the turn and you get a bet into, you should fold. Same goes if the turn and the river give a possible flush and you get bet into.

Unless my opponents have proven themselves to be maniacs, I generally assume that they have what they're representing. If I get bluffed a few times, that's fine. There are enough calling stations in O/8 that don't know what they're doing that will pay *you* off when you are holding the nuts and making pot-sized bets.

[CaptainNurple]

[ QUOTE ]
I selected that example very specifically for a reason. With the other card on board of a 4, it is relatively unlikely that your opponents will play 44xx. Only an A coming gives someone a chance to beat your two pair with better two pair. You cannot be up against a 17+ card wrap. To be able to continue and have you in trouble, they need KK/QQ/44/KQJT -- very specific hands that need cards you already have. And, you are almost never drawing dead. also i mentioned vs. only 1 opponent.

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I see. That makes a lot of sense. You've already got half of the K's and Q's in the deck, so the chances of someone having a set are slim...and 44 isn't gonna be played by a lot of people.

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It's also important to note that with a hand like the one mentioned above, you should be raising after the flop (especially in late position). This will either chase everyone or almost everyone out of the pot, or will at least give you a good indication of where you stand. If you get callers, and an A, T, or J hits on the turn and you get a bet into, you should fold. Same goes if the turn and the river give a possible flush and you get bet into.

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Good advice. Thanks.

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Unless my opponents have proven themselves to be maniacs, I generally assume that they have what they're representing. If I get bluffed a few times, that's fine. There are enough calling stations in O/8 that don't know what they're doing that will pay *you* off when you are holding the nuts and making pot-sized bets.

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Also good advice. I think I'll adapt that habit as well. I get suspicious too easily. It makes a lot of sense to just get out of those suspicious situations and let the calling stations pay you off later...

Thanks for the tips guys.

[HopeydaFish]

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Also good advice. I think I'll adapt that habit as well. I get suspicious too easily. It makes a lot of sense to just get out of those suspicious situations and let the calling stations pay you off later...

Thanks for the tips guys.

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You don't need to win every hand, you just need to milk your winning hands for as much as you can when you get them. The real fishy players (and there are lots in O/8) treat each hand like its own little battle and will chase and chase because they can't stand to look weak by folding. These people are your bread and butter. They don't pick their spots. You need to treat an O/8 session like a war, not a series of battles. I'd rather fold 10 hands in a row to a maniac where I have 1BB in the pot, if it means that I'll be able to win 50BB from the maniac when I hold the nuts. If I lose my stack at a PL 0/8 table, it's not because I made a bad call on the river. It'll either be because I went all-in after the flop or turn while holding the nuts and was rivered, or when I misread my opponent and went all-in with slightly less than the nuts thinking he'd fold, and it turned out that he was slow-playing me and held the nuts all along.

[nuclear500]

Good post, I've been finding these situations more frequently for some reason.

I liked all the feedback.

I generally toss it if there is anything resembling a straight on the turn after betting at it. A player with a set will let you know (especially in PL)

[CaptainNurple]

[ QUOTE ]
It's also important to note that with a hand like the one mentioned above, you should be raising after the flop (especially in late position). This will either chase everyone or almost everyone out of the pot, or will at least give you a good indication of where you stand. If you get callers, and an A, T, or J hits on the turn and you get a bet into, you should fold. Same goes if the turn and the river give a possible flush and you get bet into.

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What would you do if you're in early position here? Say you bet the flop, got called, and then on the turn an A, T, or J hits and you're first to act?

What about in late position? (I imagine in late position it's just as you quoted above)

[HopeydaFish]

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What would you do if you're in early position here? Say you bet the flop, got called, and then on the turn an A, T, or J hits and you're first to act?

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It would depend on the size of my stack, the size of the pot, the number of opponents still in, and my perception of the skill-level of my opponents. Heads up or short-handed and with a good sized stack, I might take a stab at winning the pot by making a bet of 1/2 the pot or pot-sized. Other times I might just check and hope that my opponent checks along, or makes a small enough bet that I have the odds to call. I try to mix it up in these situations so as to not be predictable. With an aggressive opponent, I'll always check. With a weak opponent, I'd generally bet. If I'm in early position and bet and get raised, I'll fold.

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What about in late position? (I imagine in late position it's just as you quoted above)

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Heads-up or short-handed, if it's checked to me I'll almost always bet. If I'm raised, chances are my opponent has made the straight, so I fold. With multiple opponents, I check to see the free card and hope that it's a K, Q, or a blank.