just how good are snowmen?

[dfscott]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (3 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1965)
Button (t1730)
SB (t4305)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Button raises t400, Hero goes all-in...

Thoughts?

[Degen]

perfect

Andre

[kevstreet]

In my opinion they are good enough for a push here. You may run in to a monster but I'm still going all-in.

[Maulik]

no doubt that's worthy of an all-in. Did you run into something =[

[Patrick Duffy]

i love it...now make me hate it...

[pokerlaw]

i like the hand. I hate the miniraise....it smells funny. i would push if villan had been MRing recently. If he had been pushing or 3-5XBB raising so far when entering pots, I would prob call.

[microbet]

In that situation they are the nuts.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Well done.

btw - If the villian had pushed, I probably would've called with the snowmen.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Well done.

btw - If the villian had pushed, I probably would've called with the snowmen.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would've been my plan as well -- glad to know I'm thinking correctly.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
no doubt that's worthy of an all-in. Did you run into something =[

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, a call. I'm not sure how he calls me with ATs, but whatever.

[Degen]

ya good point...i usually open raise steal all-in but i min-raise AA and KK hehe

Andre

[Degen]

yuck i don't know if i call that

Andre

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
yuck i don't know if i call that

Andre

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that CDC's old avatar?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
i love it...now make me hate it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hate it or love it, dfscott's on top
and he's goin' to shine till his heart stop...

Go ahead and envy he, poker's MVP
And he ain't goin' nowhere...so you can get to know him.

Yugoslav

[Degen]

dunno....am i avatar jocking?

i found one w/ andre and a big afro...anybody got any other/better Outkast avatars?


Andre

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i love it...now make me hate it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hate it or love it, dfscott's on top
and he's goin' to shine till his heart stop...

Go ahead and envy he, poker's MVP
And he ain't goin' nowhere...so you can get to know him.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my.

[Sam T.]

I've been wrestling with this sort of issue as well. I think 88 is a clear push, and am amazed, but not surprised (if that makes any sense) that he called with AT.

If we are all agreed that pushing is gangsta because of folding equity, what do we do about the fact that at the $11s, we have far less FE than we would against decent players? When you know that you will be called by any ace or K8 and up, pushing with garbage feels a bit less gangsta.

I'll keep doing it, but I do so knowing that a call is more likely than it should be.

Sam

[The Yugoslavian]

http://www.djmick.co.uk/p02/outkast/OutKast02.jpg

Prolly have to shrink it to get it to work...but it's a pretty sweet pic of Outkast I'd say.

Yugoslav

[Patrick Duffy]

[ QUOTE ]
Go ahead and envy he, poker's MVP
And he ain't goin' nowhere...so you can get to know him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your rhymes are actually better than 50 cent's... A new career perhaps? Yugo the gangsta rappin' rounder? No? OK, I'll shut up...

[Degen]

lol

I'm talking Andre 3000 and Big Boi dude.


Who is that?


Andre

[ColdestCall]

8,8 is a big hand three handed. You are very likely to have the best hand preflop, and in this situation, you are looking to double up so you can make a run for first. Getting all your chips to the center with the best of it has to be the right move here, whether or not you get called.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
8,8 is a big hand three handed. You are very likely to have the best hand preflop, and in this situation, you are looking to double up so you can make a run for first. Getting all your chips to the center with the best of it has to be the right move here, whether or not you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

A stop-and-go might be better than allin. It depends on the opponent.

[davehwm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no doubt that's worthy of an all-in. Did you run into something =[

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, a call. I'm not sure how he calls me with ATs, but whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost same exact situation I faced the other day. 3-handed, min-raised and I auto-pushed back with 99. Got called (and lost to) J9o. Beautiful.

And I still felt the need to post it here for sanity sake.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i love it...now make me hate it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hate it or love it, dfscott's on top
and he's goin' to shine till his heart stop...

Go ahead and envy he, poker's MVP
And he ain't goin' nowhere...so you can get to know him.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I'm flattered. Now if only my BR would appreciate rap...

Yugo is da man, you know -- he's got it goin' on...
Playin' those crazy SnGs from dusk to early dawn.

Homies pushing right and left but he just keeps on foldin'
When he finally calls you, you'll be sad 'bout what you're holdin'

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
dunno....am i avatar jocking?

i found one w/ andre and a big afro...anybody got any other/better Outkast avatars?


Andre

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, Chris Daddy Cool from the limit forum used that for a long time and I just started associating it with him. I think he's long ago changed it -- it just surprised me at first.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Who is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Who is that?


[/ QUOTE ]

The Game & 50 Cent.

Yugoslav
Who is now trying to figure out if dfscott's rap is original or modified...and if modified...from whom?

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
8,8 is a big hand three handed. You are very likely to have the best hand preflop, and in this situation, you are looking to double up so you can make a run for first. Getting all your chips to the center with the best of it has to be the right move here, whether or not you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

A stop-and-go might be better than allin. It depends on the opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered the stop-and-go, but I had visions of overcards raining down on me and didn't know if I'd have the cajones to push a KT4 flop.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Well done.

btw - If the villian had pushed, I probably would've called with the snowmen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me, too. Which makes reraising all-in even easier.

I'd do it with 7's in a flash as well. Would have to whip out my calculator to figure odds with the lower pp's.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
The Game & 50 Cent.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFLMAO!!!

Think you put up the wrong pic Yugo. That was of ~29 yr old whte chic, not two young thug black men. /images/graemlins/wink.gif


Andre

[The Student]

Why it's none other than Kylie Minogue! I can't get her out of my head - she's almost as hot as Yugo's avatar.

ts-
(who is a student of all hottie pop stars)

[bennies]

no probs for me with that flop, no, my cojones shrink (like snow?) facing AKx. They should right?

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
8,8 is a big hand three handed. You are very likely to have the best hand preflop, and in this situation, you are looking to double up so you can make a run for first. Getting all your chips to the center with the best of it has to be the right move here, whether or not you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

A stop-and-go might be better than allin. It depends on the opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really like stopping and going when the raise is less than a fourth of your stack. I like to stop and go when I know that I'm investing so much of my stack that I have to get all my chips in on the flop no matter what falls, but there's a decent chance my opponent doesn't know that. With these chips stacks there's still room for me to get away from my hand on the flop, which means I could still be faced with a tough decision postflop. It goes from "stop and go" to "stop and play a marginal hand out of position for a lot of chips," which is something I try to avoid. I'd rather keep things simple and try to use my fold equity preflop to take it down. With less chips I definitely pull a stop and go here though. Against weak opponents I use a stop and go with these stacks as well.

-Phoenix

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Why it's none other than Kylie Minogue! I can't get her out of my head - she's almost as hot as Yugo's avatar.

ts-
(who is a student of all hottie pop stars)

[/ QUOTE ]

I KNEW I recognized her, but I couldn't place her. Thanks, now I can stop staring at the pic trying to figure it out (not that it was a bad thing...).

[curtains]

This is a very very easy allin.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
8,8 is a big hand three handed. You are very likely to have the best hand preflop, and in this situation, you are looking to double up so you can make a run for first. Getting all your chips to the center with the best of it has to be the right move here, whether or not you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

A stop-and-go might be better than allin. It depends on the opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hate stop and go here against all opponents. Their raise was simply too small and your hand is way too big in a 3 handed game.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who is that?


[/ QUOTE ]

The Game & 50 Cent.

Yugoslav
Who is now trying to figure out if dfscott's rap is original or modified...and if modified...from whom?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, mine is wholly original, which makes it not nearly as clever.

For some reason, the second verse just popped into my head and I couldn't get it out, so I put together a two-line intro to purge it from my head...

[curtains]

Also your opponent was correct to call you with ATs, assuming you are a good player. However their original raise to 400 wasn't correct. Raising to 400 and folding with ATs in a 3 handed game and 1700 chips would be so incredibly weak it's not even funny. So at least he got half of it right. Just the fact that you are surprised by such a call shows that you need to work on your 3 handed and probably headsup game.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
8,8 is a big hand three handed. You are very likely to have the best hand preflop, and in this situation, you are looking to double up so you can make a run for first. Getting all your chips to the center with the best of it has to be the right move here, whether or not you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

A stop-and-go might be better than allin. It depends on the opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hate stop and go here against all opponents. Their raise was simply too small and your hand is way too big in a 3 handed game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree it the raise is too small for stop and go against most players. However, I've see a suprising number of "min-raise then call" specialists lately at the 50s/30s. This move is dumb with AT, but if he's been doing this, then I'd probably opt for the stop and go.

[curtains]

I still don't like it. First off you will be letting dominated hands like A6s off too often and lower pairs like 77 and less. Secondly you are letting the BB in for 200 chips with a very vulnerable hand. The liklihood that they will at least call here, should be pretty signifigant. The 700 chips in the pot are very valuable and I want to take them right away.

[jah0550]

2 and 1/2 words: Stop'n'go

[Bigwig]

I think the stop 'n go sucks once ITM.

In fact, I think it sucks most of the time in STT's.

Flame away.

[Phoenix1010]

Um, I think you are the BB in this hand. The hand was posted weirdly, I guessed that we were supposed to assume the SB folded.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Game & 50 Cent.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFLMAO!!!

Think you put up the wrong pic Yugo. That was of ~29 yr old whte chic, not two young thug black men. /images/graemlins/wink.gif


Andre

[/ QUOTE ]

The Game & 50 cent did the song I was modifying for dfscott.

The picture I posted should be of Andre 3000 and Big Boi - not of Kylie Minogue. In the thread I see the correct picture...the only white chick I see is my avatar.

So...ummmm, /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

Yugoslav

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Just the fact that you are surprised by such a call shows that you need to work on your 3 handed and probably headsup game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess so, because I would never play this hand that way. I just don't think ATs is strong enough. If I had AA or KK, I might've raised a smaller amount to try and get the call, but I was shocked to see him play ATs this way.

If I was in his shoes, I would push this every time. Maybe I'll start trying the raise/call and see how it works.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just the fact that you are surprised by such a call shows that you need to work on your 3 handed and probably headsup game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess so, because I would never play this hand that way. I just don't think ATs is strong enough. If I had AA or KK, I might've raised a smaller amount to try and get the call, but I was shocked to see him play ATs this way.

If I was in his shoes, I would push this every time. Maybe I'll start trying the raise/call and see how it works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember that Button is certainly making a theoretical mistake by only mini-raising. He most certainly should have pushed.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the stop 'n go sucks once ITM.

In fact, I think it sucks most of the time in STT's.

Flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you BigWig. Of course it does have it's uses sometimes, but it's a greatly overused concept on these boards.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the stop 'n go sucks once ITM.

In fact, I think it sucks most of the time in STT's.

Flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you BigWig. Of course it does have it's uses sometimes, but it's a greatly overused concept on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you agree that it's far more useful in MTT's, where the payout structure is much tighter, and survival in the middle to late stages is even more important?

[curtains]

Sorry when I read the HH it said button raises to 400 and then hero pushes, without anyone folding in between. Anyway I still hate the stop+go here. 88 is a strong hand yet very vulnerable, and you need to do everything you can to protect it, not possibly let someone with K9o see a free flop. Also sometimes you will be called by hands that you wan't to be called by here.

[curtains]

I'm not sure. It's useful usually in very specific circumstances. The problem I see is that people try to use it when it's very clear that your opponent hasn't pot committed themselves preflop, and might easily fold to a reraise. The stop and go is used almost exclusively in times when a preflop raise has little to no chance of making your opponent fold.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Um, I think you are the BB in this hand. The hand was posted weirdly, I guessed that we were supposed to assume the SB folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I was. The converter mangled all the pre-flop action, so I typed it manually. I forgot to include the SB fold.

Edit: does that change anyone's response?

[jpg7n16]

No SB doesn't change anything... you still push. I totally see his rationale though. He's thinkin "hey this is 3-handed and I have an A with a suited card higher than 7... even if one of them has an A, my kicker's likely still better and I have a flush possibility, but what are the odds that they have an A 3 handed? I'll just raise and see if I can buy this one."

Then once you raised all-in, his thoughts probably changed to "what the heck... he must just think I'm trying to steal this one since I'm short-stacked. Since SB already folded, maybe he's tryin to make a move with a face card and a weak kicker. Well crap... I'm not gonna let him make that move on me (subconsciously: since I've sold myself on the great value of my hand) so I'll call"

Made hands are always better than draws PF. Snowmen are good for an all-in with the rising blind structure and the fact that you had him covered.

[Degen]

check again (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2238088&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

Andre

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
check again (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2238088&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

Andre

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn. I had to go look at that pic again.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
check again (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2238088&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)
Andre

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this image is *still* Outkast for me, sorry.

Oh well, I sorta want to see a pic of Kylie Minogue though now, /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Yugoslav

[Blarg]

Seems to me over the last few days especially, I'm seeing people call with pretty much anything -- eight high, 10, 2 offsuit, 75 suited, 32 suited, seriously, you name it. Folding equity against a big swath of players is close to zero. I don't know if someone has found a way to synchronize the zombies into an army of world domination or what. But it seems around the bubble, nobody folds anything with rare exception lately in my games. Which is great if you can stand a showdown every time.