Tupacs Influence

[Ryan_21]

Since we shifted to the subject of rap, I felt the need to point out some things Tupac affected and influenced in our society and the kids of today. Many people dont realize how much of an influence he had on society. He basically trained a generation of soldiers that are training the next generation of kids today.

Almost all of these new rappers you see on t.v. today are just copying the blueprint that Pac layed out for them, and since the youth mimick their idols there is a whole society that benifited somehow from Tupac.

Not many people have this type of affect on a society. He has to be put in the same league as James Dean, Marlon Brando, and Elvis, when you talk about Icon status.

Here is a list of things Tupac started:

1.Thuglife or being a Thug.

When you see all these thugged out kids today and you think what the hell is wrong with society, well thats Pac's influence. Nobody was talking about being a thug until Pac had those influential words tatooed on his stomach.

2. Wearing bandana's.

Tupac definately glamorized this fashion trend for our society.

3. He started the tatoo explosion for rappers and thugs.

Yeah, people had tats before Pac, but rappers werent sportin a body full of them before Pac glamorized it.

3. Wearing Big Medalions on your chains.

No rappers or anybody else were sportin big ol Medalions until Pac died with his Angel of Death medalion on.

4. Rappers wearing a charm with their record labels logo on it.

Pac definately started this with the Death Row charm on the cover of "All Eyez on Me" now everyone does it.

5. Speaking of which, nobody was puting z's on the end of words that I can think of until Pac did it way back in 92 on his Strictly for my N.I.G.G.A.Z. album.

6. With that being said Pac glamorized using the N word between black people.

7. First to talk about drinking Crystal and Hennessey, now thats all these rappers talk about.

8. Pac was the first one to "pour out liquor" for your dead homies. This has become a cultural tread among the black community.

9. One of the most important influential things Tupac ever done was claim were he was from. He was the first to claim Westside or Westcoast, now all rappers and youth get excited to say were they are from and were they represent.

10. "Poppin your collar" You see all these rappers and kids poppin their collars on videos and on the streets, and even athletes do it in games. I seen videos of Pac doing it back in 92.

Well there are 10 things (no specific order) that Pac had a major influence over in our society. This alone, not even counting his music would make him one of the most influencial black men or any color man of the 20th century.
All of these kids and rappers today have a direct or indirect link to Tupac. You know the saying, "everybodys got a little Pac in them." If you dont think Pac was a major contributor in making the black community what it is today, just go to any mall in any major city, get you a cup of coffee and just sit back an look at all of the kids there. Any of them that look thugged out got that from Pac one way or the other, even if it was passed down to them from someone else who got it from someone else who got it from Pac.

Ryan_21

[Clarkmeister]

I agree about Tupac being influential, and one of the 4 most important rappers of all time. However.............

1. The word "Thug" may have become popular with tupac, but the idea of being a gangsta and that whole lifestyle were popularlized in many groups' lyrics before him.

3. Not sure that its something to be proud of.

3. (there were two 3's listed). Rappers were wearing big medallions long before Tupac. I can even think of several songs with lyrics talking about "my big medallion"

5. NWA was Niggaz with Attitudes. Also predating Pac.

6. This also predated Pac.

9. This also predated Pac.

Does BET still have "Old School Wednesday"? Check it out. If you like, I'll dig up specific songs and lyrics as evidence of the items that predated Tupac.

[Ryan_21]

1. You're right, I know the idea existed before Pac, but he really glamorized the term and the lifestyle like no one else.

3 #2 sorry didnt realize i made 2 #3's. You get credit on that too, I know guys like Slick Rick predated Pac, but there stuff wasnt really pumped into the mainstream and people didnt see it as much, I think Pac glamarized it more than anyone else.

5 + 6. You are probably right on these so I wont argue, although I will say Pac helped out on these a lot so, I'll give him 1/2 credit.

The only thing I really disagree with is #9. Sure people were claiming were they were from before Pac, but nobody made it a big ol deal like he did. He was once quoted as saying "before I got out of jail it wasnt a problem to be were you were from, the day I stepped out of jail it was a mf problem to be where the f you was from."

Ryan_21

[Clarkmeister]

"Straight Outta Compton" is about as in-your-face a statement about a groups roots as I can think of.

East Coast-West Coast was big before Pac. Groups were constantly saying where they were from, and more importantly, who their label was. The big difference is that the money at stake in the 90's absolutely dwarfed the money involved in the 80's. That has led to all the violence and mainstream publicity.

[B-Man]

1.Thuglife or being a Thug...

3. He started the tatoo explosion for rappers and thugs...

6. With that being said Pac glamorized using the N word between black people.


Wow, this is someone to really be proud of and look up to. I mean, look at all of his wonderful accomplishments. I think he should be ahead of Martin Luther King, Jr.!

The fact that anyone with half a brain looks up to this guy is a sad reflection on the society we live in. MLK was a role model. Colin Powell is a role model. With all of his faults, even Tiger Woods is a role model. Tupac is a thug.

1) Ok, so he popularized the word "Thug". Not the concept, though.
2)Uh, nope. Long before his first album hit, people were sporting their rags as identification. Long before the movie colors, too (which really thrust this into the mainstream).
3) Tats are gang symbols, and stem from the prison culture. Unless Tupac was around in the sixties when the prison gangs really exploded, he didn't start this either.
3b) I think Flava Flav and his clock really got this one going
5) I gotta go with Clarkmeister on this one. (plus, what's so admirable about creating a generation that can't spell)
6) I'm pretty sure it was happening before. Also, apply the parenthetical comments above)
8) was happening way before Pac. See Colors for an example. When Hollywood gets its hands on it, you know it's been around for a while already
9) What exactly did he claim? When he was on the east coast, he was all about new York. when he was on the west coast, it was all about LA. Then, up here in the bay area, it was all Oakland or Marin City. How many places does a guy get to claim, anyway?

People saw him as a visionary. I don't get that. Sure, taken individually, some of his songs were good, and his lyrics powerful. Taken collectively, though, they were a joke. How can the same artist rap about bitches and hoes and the thug life, then come out with anthems like "Keep Ya Head Up" and "Dear Mama", and expect top be taken as anything but a hypocrite?

[M2d]

[Ryan_21]

1. Double CD's, "All Eyez on Me" was raps first double CD, now rappers put out doubles like they are going out of style.

2. The phrase/concept "keeping it real", this has also become an influential concept in the way of life for the black community. Maybe the most important thing on the list.

Ryan_21

[Boris]

All I can say is you are obviously too young to remember anything from the '80s. Tupac got his bandanna fashion idea from watching David Lee Roth in Van Halen videos. I'm surprised Tupac didn't wear parachute pants also.

[Jimbo]

2) I have got to give Roy Rogers credit for the bandana Ryan.
3) far as medallions and chains I wore those in my Disco days.
6) The N word among brothers even predates my experience with it in the 1950's.
9) Poppin your collar, look at some disco or 70's movies to see the pioneers here.

As far as him being "one of the most influencial black men or any color man of the 20th century." I find this a bit of a stretch but perhaps in relation to a small group of todays' youth I can see that. For you to campare his accomplishments(?) with the likes of Henry Kissinger, past US presidents, numerous other world leaders or even the Beatles for that matter is taking this Tupac thing way to far.


Jimbo

[andyfox]

Brought my 12-year old son to a birthday party at a roller rink in a black section of the city last weekend. All the party-goers were white, all the other customers were black. Don't know if it was Tupac's influence, but all the white kids try to emulate the black kids: hair styles, clothing,lingo, the way they walk and carry themselves. We don't allow our son (age 12) to listen to certain artists or to use certain words in our presence, and have told him why we object, but I'm sure, outside of our presence, he acts differently than when he's with his parents (as we did when we were his age). I think James Deans, Marlon Brando and Elvis appropriated some of their coolness from the black community in their time too.

Tough to top what has already been mentioned by B-man, M2d, Boris and Jimbo, but I'll try anyway:
1) thuglife - just cuz (see he's influenced me too) you tatoo something on your gut, does not give you a patent on an idea or lifestyle.
2) bandanans - doorags have been worn as far back as the 70's and while they looked just as stupid on a person back then, I don't remember anyone staking claim to inventing the fashion.
3) Tatoos on black people are as effective as hair spray on bald people, you can't tell that any thing is there.
3b) see the grandfather clocks worn around brothers necks in the 80's and John Travolta's neck in Saturday night Fever.
4) Charm with a record label - kind of goes back to my previous post about rap and hip-hop becoming less about the music and its roots and more about dueling record labels.
5)Z's - its called Ebonics
6)N word between blacks - nothing new - nevertheless very hypocritcal.
7) What he didn't invent Gin and Juice too?
8) Pour out liquor for the homeys, have you ever witnessed and Irish Wake?
9) Already been answered - Straight outta Compton

ryan 21 your passion for everything Tupac is well documented and borderline apologetic, nevertheless I appreciate you trying to connect with his spirit. However, if there is one thing abundantly clear from this string of posts, it is that your influential experiences (ie ages 10-19) occured when Tupac was attempting to make his mark and he clearly succeeded in capturing your imagination. However, you should try stepping back from the tree a little and focus on the forrest and all the influences that went into Tupac's creations - no offense, but the man was not that creative and as artists will do in the future, he borrowed, stoled and intimidated what he saw as he was in his formative years.

[Ryan_21]

Well, most of you guys are right in the fact that a lot of the things Pac glamorized had been glamorized before. I think the point I was trying to make was that Tupac Shakurs influence on my generation and teenagers in the 90's was just as innovative and original as the influences James Dean, Elvis Pressely and Marlon Brando's were to there generations. Even if he took things from here and there and made them his own, he still deserves credit for the influences those things put into THIS generation, and for that is in the league of Icons that was previously mentioned.

I mean in all seriousness, if you had to pick 5 Icons of all time and James Dean was one, Marlon Brando was one, and Elvis Pressely was one, that leaves to spots. It would be unfair to not have a woman, Marylon Monroe gets my vote for woman, and It would be unfair not to have a black artist, and with the influences Tupac had in the 90's it would be hard to overlook him for the most influential black Icon of all time.

Ryan_21

[Jimbo]

Ryan,

No offense here but Tupac would not be in the top ten of the most influential black men of all time. Honestly I imagine he would appear on any such list less than .01% of the time if you surveyed a cross section of our country. If you limit your survey to Rappers, ganstas and thugs he may be well be there but this falls far short of any reasonably acceptable all time list. Heck using that reasoning would make Dr. Timothy Leary qualify for my generation and just the thought of that idea makes me LOL. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Jimbo

[M2d]

if you want to stick to rap/hip hop, how about Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambaataa, or the Sugar Hill Gang (I know, not a single person) as the men who first brought rap to mainstream conciousness? Without them, there would be no Tupac. You can go later and pick Run DMC as the first to really bring the genre out into the open.
In the rest of the music industry, Louis Armstrong Did a lot to popularize Black music in white america, as did BB King, Chuck Berry, James Brown and many others.
Expanding to Entertainment, you have to include Bill Cosby, Berry Gordy, Jackie Robinson, Kareem Abdul Jabar (changed NCAA rules as well as the first mainstream team athelete to embrace an alternative religion), Muhammed Ali/Cassius Clay, and many more.
For social issues, I think Malcom X, Martin Luther King, and others influenced our world a lot more than Tupac did. Hell, even OJ (unwittingly) forced us to look inwards to problems within our own society on a much larger scale than did Pac.
These were only in the Current Century!! How many others did I not have room to mention here? How many others in history?

[Zeno]

Frederick Douglass (1817-1895) and W.E.B Du Bois (1868-1963) come to mind immediately.

-Zeno

[IrishHand]

Since we're on the topic, and of course this means that everyone is englightened and openminded:

Who are the most influential white men of all time?

[John Cole]

Don't push me, cause I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head

Note the general iambic thrust of the lines.

John

[Zeno]

Since it is implicit in the postings the infulential men I mentioned are Americans. Influential "Western White Men" of all time is a bit weighty. A simple list is probably not possible. But to those who started the Path of Western Ideas the list must begin with Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

-Zeno

[Ryan_21]

You can love him or hate him but, Pacs movie drops today. It aint no documentary that went straight to dvd. Its on the main stream big screen, produced by MTV.

This is gonna be the biggest movie of all time about rap, and about rap's biggest superstar. Pac is the biggest legend of hip hop of all time. What other rapper has his own big screen movie?

MTV stated that he is the top selling hip hop artist of all time w/ 35 million records sold, almost doubling the second top seller the Beastie Boys w/ 21 million albums sold. 3rd is Eminem w/ 20 million, 4th is Jay-z w/ 18 million, and 5th is Hammer w/ 16 million. And his official record sells dont even include his numerous bootlegs and mix tapes.

Since his 1996 murder Pac has had 7 official new ablums 3 of which where #1 albums on the billboards and six went multiplatnum. As MTV puts it, "7 years after his death he is still crushing the competition."

Ryan_21

[Ryan_21]

"I agree about Tupac being influential, and one of the 4 most important rappers of all time."

One of the 4 most important rappers?

*Laugh*

Who else can even be put in the same catagory?
There are definately some other VERY important rappers of all time, but Pac has clearly distanced himself from the pack. He's so far ahead that he probably cant even see them if he was "staring at the world through his rearview."
Ryan_21

[whatsgoingon]

THE BEST RAP GROUP EVER TEAM ALLIANCE CHECK THEM OUT AT TEAMALLIANCE.NET....WANT SOME MORE OF THEIR SONGS HIT ME UP ON AIM AT AMONDEL1. oh yeah sorry for caps but I wanna get my point across!

[Ryan_21]

Jimbo, I know you dont post on here anymore but I couldnt resist.

"As far as him being "one of the most influencial black men or any color man of the 20th century." I find this a bit of a stretch but perhaps in relation to a small group of todays' youth I can see that. For you to campare his accomplishments(?) with the likes of Henry Kissinger, past US presidents, numerous other world leaders or even the Beatles for that matter is taking this Tupac thing way to far."

Well, I hope you catch the movie that drops today. As far as your assumption, Pac is the Malcom X and MLK of the hip hop Generation, furthermore, he is the top selling rap artist of all time w/ 35 million albums sold and counting, and the amount of albums sold after his untimely death clearly puts him into Icon status and thus, not taking it to far.

Ryan_21

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Pac is the Malcom X and MLK of the hip hop Generation

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't really seem to have a good grasp over how these three people's accomplishments impact people's lives and history. Using your own list, there doesn't seem to be anything of importance that Tupac accomplished.

1. Creating thugs/thuglife? Is this good? Is this a positive influence on his generation?

2. Fashion. Big deal.

3. Fashion, again.

3(#2). More fashion.

4. Yet more fashion.

5. Is ebonics something to be proud of?

6. More unimpressive contributions to language.

7. Talking about drugs? This is a serious contribution to your generation?

8. I won't insult the dead.

9. He said where he was from? Astonishing.

10. Had to end the list with yet another fashion statement.


Almost half the list are fashion statements. The rest aren't any more important. You compared Tupac to people like Elvis Presley and James Dean. That seems at list within the realm of possibility. But, why in the world would you compare them to MLK and Malcom X? I don't remember ever reading about how Elvis Presley was as important and influencial as Abraham Lincoln. Or how James Deans accomplishments rival those of George Washington.

[ QUOTE ]
furthermore, he is the top selling rap artist of all time w/ 35 million albums sold and counting

[/ QUOTE ]

And Harrison Ford has starred in well over a dozen films which have made $100 million. It doesn't make him the next Franklin Roosevelt.

[M2d]

Without Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash or Grandmaster Caz, Tupac is just a kid in Marin City

Without LL, Fresh Prince or Run DMC, there is no mainstream audience for Tupac (and he's still in the Marin City projects, folks)

Without NWA, Easy E, Too Short, and Ice T, there is no market for gangsta rap, and, again, our man is stuck in Marin City.

(BTW, does he ever claim Marin City in any of his raps? that's where he's really from)

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
What other rapper has his own big screen movie?

[/ QUOTE ]
Eminem
Fat Boys (look ma, no 'Z')
Kurtis Blow/Fat Boys/Run DMC

Not exactly Academy quality here, but you did ask, and they did make the silver screen

[Ryan_21]

Actually he was from Baltimore before Marin City and Brooklyn before that.

And yes, without the guys you mentioned there would be no Tupac, but just because they were first does not mean they are the biggest and/or best.

Look at it like this, the NBA sucks today b/c MJ's shoes are too big to fill and nobody has even come close....the same reason why the rap game sucks today too. Pac's shoes are just to big to fill.

The reason he is so important is b/c he made people care about his life and he made people of all shapes, sizes, colors and backgrounds relate to him. Im sorry but nobody cares about LL cool J's and Grandmaster Flash's lives and not many people can relate to Eazy E and, Ice T.

Ryan_21

[Ryan_21]

"Fat Boys (look ma, no 'Z')
Kurtis Blow/Fat Boys/Run DMC

Not exactly Academy quality here, but you did ask, and they did make the silver screen"

Exactly.

And Im talking about a big screen movie that personifies their life. Eminems movie wasnt about Eminem, it was about a character named Rabbit.

Ryan_21

[Ryan_21]

Im sorry but you're wrong here, Tupac was an activist before he was a rapper and a star. His mother was a leader of the Panthers. Pac was the President of the Junior Black Panthers and the "chosen one to take over the Panther movement when he was old enough" Furthermore, Tupac's music has more of a social concsience than probably any other rapper, he basically preached through his music, and his music has probably reached more people than Malcom X and MLK did combined.

"there doesn't seem to be anything of importance that Tupac accomplished."

"And Harrison Ford has starred in well over a dozen films which have made $100 million."

Tupac was Important because he made people care about his life and he made people of all shapes, sizes, colors and backgrounds relate to him.

Nobody cares about Harrison Fords personal life and no 18 year old chinese single mother on welfare can relate to him. Thats the difference, everyone can relate to Pac, rich, poor, black, white, russian, mexican, chinese, old, young, middle age, male, female.

Ryan_21

[Ryan_21]

"there doesn't seem to be anything of importance that Tupac accomplished."

You do realize that they are and have been teaching classes about Tupac at Harvard and Cal Berkley for quite a few years. The man has his own ideaology. That alone speaks volumes about his importance.

I dont see them teaching any classes at Ivy League University or any other institutions of higher learning about people like Harrison Ford, LL Cool J, Grandmaster Flash, Ice Cube, or Run DMC. Why? Because those guys were just rappers and/or entertainers Tupac was a Revolutionary that was so important that it is beyond comprehension, people probably wont begin to "fully" understand how important he was for at least 20 more years.

Ryan_21

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, Tupac's music has more of a social concsience than probably any other rapper

[/ QUOTE ]
BDP ring any bells? How about Flash and Melle Mel on The Message? that was, I think, much more revolutionary because they were creating a genre rather than following one. Up to that point, rap music was all about partying. Flash and Mel taught the generation that you could reach the masses through this new music form.

[ QUOTE ]
he basically preached through his music

[/ QUOTE ]
And like other celebrated/notorious preachers of our mass media times, he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He "preaches" about treating women right and how great his momma is, then gets convicted of rape? that's pure hypocrisy

[ QUOTE ]
his music has probably reached more people than Malcom X and MLK did combined.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you're severely deluded if you think that Malcolm and Martin were heard by fewer people than Tupac. Tupac was proabably heard by more people than most other rappers, but not by more than those two.
On the subject of influence, why do you think that Tupac was heard by more people than the other rappers whom you have dismissed? Tupac's celebrity was built upon the shoulders of Cool Herc, Kurtis Blow, Grandmaster Flash, Grandmaster Caz, Love Bug Starski, James Brown, Bambaataa, Grandwizard Theodore, Pete DJ Jones, DMC, Cool J, and a whole host of other rappers, DJ's B-Boys, producers and others who brought rap in from the streets. Pac's influence is also built upon the technology that brought Cable to your home and MTV to Cable. It's built upon the amazing herd like mentality that MTV brings upon its viewers, and it's built upon the huge publicity that surrounded his death.

Learn your history and respect your history. Without this knowledge, you come off sounding like a madman.

[M2d]

The reason people care is because of MTV, the controversy surrounding his death, and the huge vault of songs that Pac had to release posthumously.

[T-Wrecks]

Dynasty,

I would have to agree with you that most of the things that were listed do have to do with Fashion, but your kidding me and yourself if you tell me that you didn't at one time or another buy something in a store that you saw someone popular, idolized, or well-liked wearing. Its what commercials are for for God's sake.

There were a couple of the other numbers listed that caught my attention...

#1) Creating Thug Life. You ask if this is a good thing? or a positive influence on his generation? Who's to say its a bad thing? or a negative reflection on our Generation? Not me, and certainly not you. That is yet to be seen or determined.

#5 & 6) I shouldn't even give you the satisfaction of replying to this, You realize how many different languages there are in the world today...the English language you were taught when you were young, the language you speak, is that something that should be glorfied just because its the language you learned...Dont blame Tupac for Ebonics or what you may or may not like about the way black people talk, the fact is, thats the only way it was spoken, or used when growing up for him. Just like the slang we all used when growing up. Basically, Tupac did not create Ebonics, and speaking it was second nature to him and other black males growing up at the same time.

7.) No, It's not a serious contribution to our generation, it was a serious contribution to yours, Drugs have been here longer than Tupac, so when he was talking about them is just saying what it is, a problem. and thats the only way he would ever describe them, as a problem...except Marijuana, which hey, that may be decriminalized soon. We have all used Pot, Reefer, Ganja, Marijuana, whatever you wanna call the plant. (those of you who really Havn't smoked weed, thank you... for leaving it for others)

8.) How do you insult the dead? Id like to see how they would respond to being insulted. It's ok for a certain person to pour out some of they're prized Crown Royal for someone that has passed, just cause its not something you would do, dosn't mean its BAD for someone else to do, and honestly, I dont see how that willingly insults the dead. When those are the farthest from intentions when it is performed.

In all, I would just like to get people to look outside the box more often than to just look at what you've always looked at, believing its the ONE and ONLY way to get things accomplished, or way of thinking, I agree, Opinions are Opinions, Im not disagreeing with ANY of your opinions, I am disagreeing with your choice of words and your comments.

[Makaveli]

The problem with discussing tupac amongst those who rely solely on media coverage of him or their brief experiences with his music is that they will be starting with nothing but a negative image of a black male (wow, the media never intends to create such an image- not sure how that happened) and focused upon the negative aspects of his life and construed them in such a manner that people not only are ignorant of the facts, but they have beliefs/stereotypes about him (such as he's a rapist, a gang-banger, etc. etc.) that are not true. Arguing with these people is a losing battle against their ignorance, as they will rely on the media's reporting as facts and have never investigated his life personally...and while granted that unless we knew of him personally, then we are relying on second-hand facts/stories, yet some second-hand facts are more reliant than others, especially in this case. Many whites (especially the older they are) look at 2pac's use of the N-word as ignorant and self-degrading, whereas if they had been introduced to any education on the politics of semantics in societies, they would understand the concepts of diffusion and would also understand strategies for taking the meaning of a word and changing it for better. Whites cry hipocrisy, which is humourous because hipocrisy assumes the same position in life and when attempted to cry hipocrisy in race is like Shaq calling a foul on mini-me.
Also, our society is very complex, whether socially or psychologically. To say that tupac's work was collectively a joke because in some instances he used the word bitch and ho (which the Anonymous poster must've never heard Pac's many explanations on the subject) and in other songs he told women to be strong individuals and possess other good qualities, is to deny the contradictions which we all live in. To say that you've never uttered the word bitch or ho is very suspect and rare in most cases, as most of us have used such words at some time in our life. Does this then mean that we are just as bad?, or have a distinction between bitches/hoes and women. Or maybe we are all responsible for the use of the word still being present in our language....One thing is for sure, this generation nor did one Tupac create such a word and are not ultimately responsible for its regular use...
To find the statement, "tupac is one of the most influential black males of the 20th century" to be false is simply denying the truth with no logical, sound argument to follow. Influential is an understatement, there are millions of people, (of all colors) who are and were influenced by tupac and his message. So while he may not have influenced you personally, the evidence is present that he influenced millions. And these millions may not be the millions visible to you, may not be the millions in middle class america, but are none the less just as important as you and I.
Artists (or at least most) are not politically correct, they are not face-guys for the media who feed answers that were begged for in the first place. They are individuals who share their inner thoughts, feelings (which includes anger), and desires. I'm also pretty sure that if some of the individuals who are discrediting Tupac were to share their inner thoughts, feelings and desires we would find a lot to be shocking and might be disgusted. So while Tupac may not have been politically correct, this does not discount/discredit his agenda, his heart, and his ideas. And without listening to all of his music you cannot begin to even understand the complexity of his thoughts, feelings and views. If he were a poet and all of our knowledge about him was through written word, some might have a different opinion on the level of his thinking and attitude, but when the message poster's on this board rely on images they come up with incomplete/inaccurate opinions about Tupac.

[M2d]

did you read what I posted? taken individually, some of his songs were good. taken collectively, they contradict each other. To hold up someone who contradicts himself so much as a cultural icon is either a joke or a sad commentary on society.
Can I call someone a dumb F*** A$$h*** and then explain that, in my culture, that phrase is only meant as the highest praise? even if that were true, the connotation of the words to the greater society supercedes any personal meaning that I may have thought I was delivering. Tupac could have had the utmost in respect in mind when he wrote his raps, but, if the audience he's influencing doesn't understand his message, then he's failed as messenger. In that case, why don't we hold up the incoherant bum on the street corner or the doomsday prophet in the sandwich board downtown as fountains of ideology and geniuses? I'm sure, to themselves, the message is clear and important. It's just society that doesn't understand the way that they are using the words.

Has anyone ever denied that Tupac was influental (and continues to be?). that he's swayed you enough to create three 2+2 accounts to argue on his behalf is a testament to the length which he's influenced your life. I don't think he's the most influental man (black or otherwise), though, and it's not even close. To compare him to MLK jr. or Malcolm X is an insult to the men, their causes, and the people of this country. To disregard the founding fathers of the genre and call Tupac the most influental rapper is an insult to everyone who rapped or spun before him. Without them, there is not rap music.

BTW, I'm neither white nor older, but I've been a rap fan since the seventies.

[hetron]

Tupac might have popularized some of the stuff you mentioned, but he certainly wasn't the first to do it. A lot of people in Gen. Y think Biggie and Tupac invented a lot of things that actually happened way before they popularized them.

Not many people have this type of affect on a society. He has to be put in the same league as James Dean, Marlon Brando, and Elvis, when you talk about Icon status.

Here is a list of things Tupac started:

1.Thuglife or being a Thug.

When you see all these thugged out kids today and you think what the hell is wrong with society, well thats Pac's influence. Nobody was talking about being a thug until Pac had those influential words tatooed on his stomach.

This one I think you might have to give him credit (if that's the right word for). Before, being "dangerous" was associated with being a gangster. He changed the whole paradigm over to the non-affiliated punk, or thug.

2. Wearing bandana's.

Tupac definately glamorized this fashion trend for our society.

Bandannas go back to the whole gang thing. He might have popularized them but Naughty by Nature was wearing them before Tupac was.
3. He started the tatoo explosion for rappers and thugs.

Yeah, people had tats before Pac, but rappers werent sportin a body full of them before Pac glamorized it.

It's hard to say if that came from him or the whole Allen Iverson/Dennis Rodman thing. Certainly tattoos did go from being something only gangbangers, excons, rockers, and marines had to a more mainstream fashion accessory somewhere in the mid 90's
3. Wearing Big Medalions on your chains.

No rappers or anybody else were sportin big ol Medalions until Pac died with his Angel of Death medalion on.

Wrongo. Go back to the "Paid in full" CD cover and check out all the old Mercedes Benz medallions that people from that era wore

4. Rappers wearing a charm with their record labels logo on it.

Pac definately started this with the Death Row charm on the cover of "All Eyez on Me" now everyone does it.

I'm not sure about the charm itself, but rappers would strongly associate themselves with their record labels back in the 80's, especially the Russell Simmons Def Jam label (though I don't know if any of them had an actual Def Jam charm or medallion)

5. Speaking of which, nobody was puting z's on the end of words that I can think of until Pac did it way back in 92 on his Strictly for my N.I.G.G.A.Z. album.

6. With that being said Pac glamorized using the N word between black people.

That goes back to NWA which predates 2pac's first album by 3 or 4 years I think.
7. First to talk about drinking Crystal and Hennessey, now thats all these rappers talk about.

Wrong. Hennessey, Moet, and Cristal go back to the days of Eric B and Rakim, Slick Rick and Big Daddy Kane.
8. Pac was the first one to "pour out liquor" for your dead homies. This has become a cultural tread among the black community.

Definitely NOT the first one. Check out DRS's "Gangsta Lean" or even a movie like Boyz in the Hood (I think.) Tupac in no way invented that.

9. One of the most important influential things Tupac ever done was claim were he was from. He was the first to claim Westside or Westcoast, now all rappers and youth get excited to say were they are from and were they represent.

NWA did this way before he did it. The whole Westside thing was something he was brought into when he joined Death Row. He wasn't a part of it before that.
10. "Poppin your collar" You see all these rappers and kids poppin their collars on videos and on the streets, and even athletes do it in games. I seen videos of Pac doing it back in 92.

I think this goes back to Happy Days and Fonzie. No wayy was he the first one to start doing this.
Well there are 10 things (no specific order) that Pac had a major influence over in our society. This alone, not even counting his music would make him one of the most influencial black men or any color man of the 20th century.
All of these kids and rappers today have a direct or indirect link to Tupac. You know the saying, "everybodys got a little Pac in them." If you dont think Pac was a major contributor in making the black community what it is today, just go to any mall in any major city, get you a cup of coffee and just sit back an look at all of the kids there. Any of them that look thugged out got that from Pac one way or the other, even if it was passed down to them from someone else who got it from someone else who got it from Pac.



Ryan_21

[/ QUOTE ]

[T-Wrecks]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone ever denied that Tupac was influental (and continues to be?). that he's swayed you enough to create three 2+2 accounts to argue on his behalf is a testament to the length which he's influenced your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may want to believe that there is only one person who visits these forums that is a fan of Tupac, but that quote makes me laugh, nice try though.

[Makaveli]

ok, i'm not sure who created 3 twoplustwo accounts, but I can assure you that I have only one username and this can be verified through mattysklansky@twoplustwo.com
Secondly, about your comment that "the connotation to the greater society supercedes any personal meaning"....it supercedes (comes before) when discussing it with what you term is the "greater society" (i'm assuming when you say greater your describing it by sheer numbers), however, this meaning still applies to the subculture/audience that Tupac was directly speaking towards. Your assumption that his audience did not understand his message is clearly not valid because on a poker website we have 3 different individuals who obviously understood his message, so it is true that while not all of his "fans" may have understood the message, clearly a large number of his audience did recieve such a message. Do you then discount that message because others were not able to comprehend it? Surely you do not, or else you would discredit many scholars, both historical and present...and you would not say that any historical figure such as Socrates and Aristotle failed as a messanger.
And there have been those who said that Tupac was not influential, they were partly responsible for my post on this board. While he may not have been the most influential person of the 20th century, it does not mean that he wasn't one of the most influential. Malcolm X and MLK would both not only embrace Tupac but I'm sure Malcolm would have a lot to defend as would MLK, therefore to say that a comparison would be an insult to the two is ridiculous, they would have loved Tupac and embraced his compassion for the audience he was attempting to reach. While there may be others who disregard the founding fathers of a genre, I am not one of them, in fact, you are correct in the fact that without them there would be no rap music, however, without them there still would've been a Tupac.

[Cyrus]

"Since his 1996 murder Pac has had 7 official new albums."

I found 'em a little stiff, to be honest.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Jim Kuhn]

Welcome back Jimbo! I have not seen you on the 2+2 forums for quite some time!

[Jim Kuhn]

[Ryan_21]

"but, if the audience he's influencing doesn't understand his message, then he's failed as messenger."

I think the audience Pac was preaching to understood his message perfectly, its people like you, just like Makaveli mentioned that have never listened to and dissected his music and poetry and ideology as a whole who dont get the message.

It is clear that Tupac was a very important and influential black man and should be put in the same catagory as MLK and Malcom X, for Christ sakes, they are teaching college courses about the man at universitys like Harvard, and Cal Berkely. They are building a Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation for the Performing Arts, on 300 acres in northern Atlanta. And like I said before, people wont fully begin to grasp his greatness and importance for atleast 20 more years. I guarantee that by 2020 their will be streets named after Pac, just like their are after MLK. And even if there arent any streets named Tupac Amaru Shakur Blvd. right now, the thought isnt that unrealistic, but the thought of LL Cool J Avenue or Grandmaster Flash Way, is just rediculous.

Ryan_21

[Ryan_21]

"you are correct in the fact that without them there would be no rap music, however, without them there still would've been a Tupac."

This is a very good point. This is why Tupac is so popular and so important, because the man is bigger than Rap Music. Like I said before, he was an Activist and a Revolutionary way before he was ever a rapper, or a star.

So, I have to agree with Makaveli, that even without Rap music there would still have been Tupac.

Ryan_21

[Ryan_21]

You really think I created 3 user accounts. It makes me laugh too T-Wrecks, like Im the only Tupac fan in the world. Hell, if I was gonna go throught the trouble of creating 3 I might as well have stayed up all night and created 30. What a joke.

Ryan_21

[Bill Murphy]

Doyle Brunson, David Sklansky, Benny & Jack Binion... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Bill Murphy]

Richard Pryor. And NWA did a lot of other stuff you mentioned before Pac. Pouring out for dead homiez is as old as war itself. And the medallion bit ain't nothing special; remember Flavor Flav's clocklace?

That said, Pac is undoubtedly one of the top ten black cultural icons of all time, as well as one of the top five rappers. However, I'm dubious that the movie(documentary) will be anything other than a sanitized glorification, what with mom producing it.

I thought Pac wuz great in Gang Related(a very underrated film). I loved his "ride the lightning" dis in the trial scene.

[John Cole]

along with Elvis.

[Ryan_21]

Yeah I know Flava Flav had a big dumb clock, Im talking about medalions jeweled and diamond out with a meaning, like the Death Row Medalion and the Black Angel of Death Medalion he was wearing when he died. All these rappers today are "Iced out" b/c they wanna be like Pac. And yes, if anybody wants to try to give a history lesson I know who Slick Rick is too. But, bottom line is, these fake arse rappers today wouldnt be putting their record labels on their stupid Ice chains if Pac wouldnt have ever flashed that Death Row Medalion on All Eyez On Me.

One question for you Bill, out of curiosity. You said Pac is one of the top 5 rappers of all time, what would your top 5 list look like?

Ryan_21

[Bill Murphy]

I'm really no expert or fan of rap, other than Straight Outta Compton and Cube's solo stuff aside from the last last two.

I think I did a thread on this awhile back. Cube number one, and then Pac, Biggie, Em & Chuck D in whatever order, maybe? Run DMC also needs to be in there somewhere, prolly. FWIW virtually every black artist I've read about has Pac & Biggie as the top two, although I do think their deaths have a small bearing on that.

Most of the stuff I've heard thru the years that I've liked I wouldn't know who did it, or even what the song was called, for a million bucks. Quick, who did Pistol Grip Pump? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Ryan_21]

I really dont want to get into it about Pac or Cube w/ ya, I respect your opinions b/c you respect mine, and I love Straight Outta Compton and all of Cube's early work, my only problem w/ Cube is that his rap career has been over for like 9 years, and when it was winding down he had to resort to copying Pac with that whole Westside Connection crap. I remember a interview w/ Pac where he said Cube wasnt saying nothing about that Westside crap until I got out of prison and made "Hit em Up" then Cube was like oh thats how its suppose to be now, and then he started that fake Westside Connection war crap.

Anyway, not trying to diss Cube, I just couldnt rank him #1 personally.

As for your million dollar question, by the name I have no clue, maybe Im just retarded? Maybe if I heard the song?

Ryan_21

[Bill Murphy]

...On my lap at all times, they can be fvckin' with other niggaz' sh1t, but they can't be fvckin' with mine...

Covered by RATM on the Renegades album(where I first heard it, although I have a dim recall from WAY back), and sampled on the new Outkast, which is how I know it was done by:
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.
.
.
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Volume 10, in 1993. Thought it was earlier; 80's like some of the other stuff on RATM.

My main prop for Cube is that he seems to be a better natural *singer*; much smoother delivery than almost anyone else. Dr Dre, JayZ, Busta, just horrible.

I gotta hear 2Pacalypse Now & Life After Death(? - Biggie's last). I Ain't Mad At Cha & You're Nobody(Til Somebody Kills You) are just insane song titles.

[AmericanAirlines]

See what I've been telling you AndyFox?

America is becoming Africanized.

By your own observation.

So is this a good thing?

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Well, some folks say Run DMC brought out Rap.

Some folks blame Aerosmith.

I think it was Cheech and Chong... with thier ground breaking "Earache my Eye".

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sincerely,
AA

[Ryan_21]

If any of you are unsure of his importance or doubt it, I guarantee you if you watch this movie it will change your mind immediately! The movie makes you understand what he was trying to accomplish with THUG LIFE and what it meant and what his goals were with it for the future and how important his idealogy on ghetto society was and how much he wanted to change the stereotype of his society and makes you wonder how much he would have accomplished if his life wasnt ended.

Ryan_21

[Easy E]

"Tatoos on black people are as effective as hair spray on bald people, you can't tell that any thing is there."

... because, in all of my years, i have NEVER see a "black" person that wasn't pulled out of a fire.

[Easy E]

... as he moved along in his career.

[ChipWrecked]

Two things:

1. Could somebody clue in a poor dumb cracka as to what "poppin a collar" is?

2. MTV stated that he is the top selling hip hop artist of all time w/ 35 million records sold, almost doubling the second top seller the Beastie Boys w/ 21 million albums sold. 3rd is Eminem w/ 20 million,

The number two and three all-time sellers of hip-hop are white?

And if somebody busts a cap in Eminem's white ass, watch for his count to skyrocket past Pac's.

[trillig]

Don't forget, the majority of rap albums are bought by white teenage boys.

At that time in my own life there was no RAP other than Sugar Hill Gang, at that time Lynyrd Skynyrd, Kansas, Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd, and hard rock Hair Bands were all the rage.

Tupac had 'bad attitude' written all over him, and obviously couldn't keep his thoughts to himself, he had been shot a few times, that triggers a red flag in my mind.

I was at the exact spot he was gunned down 30 mins before he was killed, my wife and I had gone to the MGM Grand to see the Mike Tyson fight Hoopla, got bored and left.

Top 10 Black Icon of all time? Top 5 rapper? I beg to differ.

-t

[tw texas]

tupac sucks. without him, hip hop wouldn't be in this dead-end bling bling, gangsta rap era. if you want to listen to meaningful rap, listen to immortal technique, ras kass, killah priest and the likes.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Three Leters

N.W.A.

everything you said Pac did, they did before him.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think it is sad you focus on what influence he had on popular culture and not the influence he had on people's minds.
His music is deep, there is a reason no other rapper will ever be like him, he touched all people, blacks, whites, hispanics, asians, anyone who ever had similar experiences as him, or thoughts similar to his.
My favorite line from him is "even geniuses ask questions" that is what he represents to me. Not some rapper who wore lost of jewelry or drank expenisve alcohol. Think about that.

[MMMMMM]

"1.Thuglife or being a Thug.

When you see all these thugged out kids today and you think what the hell is wrong with society, well thats Pac's influence. Nobody was talking about being a thug until Pac had those influential words tatooed on his stomach."

In other words, he was a bad influence, and harmful to the black community and to youth in general. Way to go (NOT!).

What's more, the glamorization of the violent thuglife has no doubt resulted in many young people dying prematurely, especially in the black community. In other words, Tupac's influence probably did more harm than good.

Too bad what he started can't be undone, but that's life.