99 preflop, 2 raises, did I play this wrong?

[Fatdogs12]

This is a $5 game on PP. I have been trying to play by the Ben Franklin / Aleo strategy what do you think about this move late in the game? I folded here and busted out not too much later when I got beat when I was dominated (had no choice though).

100/200 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 11620015) - Mon Apr 25 09:53:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 17618 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: fatdogs12 (425)
Seat 2: Zauch (1575)
Seat 3: uuuggghhh404 (1400)
Seat 6: centercutd (200)
Seat 8: jagger37 (2925)
Seat 10: artman73 (1475)
Zauch posts small blind (50)
uuuggghhh404 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fatdogs12 [ 9h, 9d ]
centercutd raises (200) to 200
centercutd is all-In.
jagger37 folds.
artman73 raises (1475) to 1475
artman73 is all-In.
fatdogs12 folds.
Zauch folds.
uuuggghhh404 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $550 with centercutd
Creating Side Pot 1 with $1275 with artman73
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jc, Tc, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ts ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Js ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 550 | Side Pot 1: 1275
Board: [ Jc Tc 8h Ts Js ]
fatdogs12 balance 425, didn't bet (folded)
Zauch balance 1525, lost 50 (folded)
uuuggghhh404 balance 1300, lost 100 (folded)
centercutd balance 0, lost 200 [ Kd 5h ] [ two pairs, jacks and tens -- Kd,Jc,Js,Tc,Ts ]
jagger37 balance 2925, didn't bet (folded)
artman73 balance 1825, bet 1475, collected 1825, net +350 [ Ad Ks ] [ two pairs, jacks and tens with ace kicker -- Ad,Jc,Js,Tc,Ts ]

[syka16]

no. Fold and open raise ASAP

[hummusx]

Good fold.

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]
no. Fold and open raise ASAP

[/ QUOTE ]

One of us is misreading it. Looks like he did fold.

[BradleyT]

I think he means on the next hand or two.

[hummusx]

Yeah I was responding to his 'no'.

[syka16]

no, he did not play it wrong... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Phil Van Sexton]

I call here. You have 425. If you fold and then steal, you'll have 575. Yee-haw!!! wtf is 575 going to buy you at the 100/200 level?

The first raiser is all-in UTG for 200 which means....nothing. Artman thinks he has something better than nothing, but that doesn't mean he has AA-TT. If he has any other hand, I'm thrilled.

You aren't going to blind steal into the money with that sorry stack and a bunch of 10/1 players who are going to call your steals with any paint.

Here is a chance to triple up. I'm sorry, but folding is really bad.

[syka16]

I don't think it's really bad to fold. But I don't think calling is much better. If you put him on a range of 66+ AT+ which is pretty loose IMO then, it's a call heads up but not by much.

[Fatdogs12]

Well ultimately I figured that they pretty much had what they did have. So pretty much even if you figure to be up against some overcards you still are pushing right? I mean I felt silly folding there because I felt my chances of placing if I didn't make this call were like 10% most likely. I felt I probably had a 20% shot (or better) to win this hand so I felt pushing had a higher EV.

[mizaun]

I agree with Phil, I think you have to call here, the guy with 200 chips going all in utg, really shouldn't be too much of a factor in your decision. He could easily have 1 over sometimes even worst. He screws up your equity though. So basically its whether you really think your that behind the other guy, and you aren't even to a very tight range of hands. If he has TT-AA good beats, you have 4 blinds i don't know what your waiting for personally.

[adanthar]

This one is close enough so that you really shouln't beat yourself up over it. I call, though.

[pooh74]

I call this in a heartbeat and I dont think its so close actually (see PVS post why...)

UTG...who cares...this isnt a typical call of 2 allin hands bc utg is about to be blinded. Over the top raise wouldnt do that with KK/AA i bet (who knows)...point is, I think youll be a favorite against reraiser here often enough to make this worthwhile. How often is enough? Not very often bc of your slim chances after folding. I think OP's intuition is correct when he says +EV to call.

[ColdestCall]

I think this is a pretty easy call, because I would expect the second all-in raiser to have a pair lower than yours and be looking to isolate the all-in short stack, who could have just about anything here. In any event, I would expect to be ahead of both of the other players the majority of the time, and with only 425 left in chips, this looks like the most favorable situation that is likely to develop to take some risk and try to get back in this tournament.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
So pretty much even if you figure to be up against some overcards you still are pushing right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I knew both their hands, I'd call with 22.

If you fold, you are going to be up against 4 good sized stacks with virtually no folding equity with the calling stations at $5/1.

You need to get lucky and win a big hand. You are probably going to lose either way, but I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory.

[Fatdogs12]

All of these posts are pointing to a no question call. That makes me wonder this: a few hands before I had KQ, one person had miniraised me. I folded ala Aleo's strat. (at least this is what I believe his strat says) should I have pushed there as I was in late position?

I mean if it's late in the game at what point are you starting to push? If you are under 10bb's? I mean I would think then if you had 475 and the blinds were 25/50 you would start pushing your chips all in then.

That would lead me to believe this: The early rounds you are looking to see cheap flops with decent or good hands. If you get nothing you need to start pushing PROBABLY before you hit that threshhold where your stack doesn't do much damage to anyone.

If that is true I think i should have come out swinging with the KQ. Right or wrong?

[syka16]

[ QUOTE ]

I mean if it's late in the game at what point are you starting to push? If you are under 10bb's? I mean I would think then if you had 475 and the blinds were 25/50 you would start pushing your chips all in then.

That would lead me to believe this: The early rounds you are looking to see cheap flops with decent or good hands. If you get nothing you need to start pushing PROBABLY before you hit that threshhold where your stack doesn't do much damage to anyone.

If that is true I think i should have come out swinging with the KQ. Right or wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]


Start pushing 88/99+ AQ+ UTG on level 3 with ~12BBB 7/8 handed. You can sometimes push with less at low buyins with a few maniacs. You see how 5BB on level 4, 8 handed, leaves you taking slightly -EV coinflips or blind steals. BTW KQo is kinda to very trashy against a non possitional raise.

[ColdestCall]

Well, KQ is a very different hand from 99. Without knowing all of the details, I would say that no, you shouldn't have pushed vs the minraiser with KQ. Generally speaking, when pushing over the top of a minraiser, it's nice to likely be holding a better hand than the minraiser, particularly if you do not have a lot of folding equity. KQ kind of sucks versus a raiser.

Also generally speaking, when you are under 10BB your preflop decisions are push or fold. This can be modified depending on various circumstances, but 10BB is a pretty good guideline. However, there is a big difference between open pushing and pushing over the top of a raiser. For example, your KQ in the cutoff could be good enough to open push and steal the blinds, but it is clearly not good enough to push over the top of a minraiser.

As an aside, be careful of seeing too many "cheap flops" in the early rounds, as these cheap flops can add up and leave you shortstacked just when you need chips to push people around. Leaking chips on spec hands early is a major problem for a lot of SNG players.