13% of Blacks in their late twenties are in prison [Archive]

Matty

04-25-2005, 02:43 PM

Really? This seems pretty obvious. You take group A, put them in the worst schools, worst neighborhoods, have laws discriminating against them, and give them no money. Then you take group B, give them enough money so that their annual inheritance transfers equal more than the GDP of the entire country, have the majority of them in the good schools, good neighborhoods, etc.

No matter who group A and B are comprised of, it's going to take many many many generations (I'm talking hundreds) for that imbalance to dissapear. In the span of things a hundred years is nothing. It's very hard to break out of cycles and move up in class and even in America it happens very rarely.

On topic, look at the Middle East. They started off way ahead of Europe in development of civilization, but after Attila the Hun (I think that's the guy) wiped out nearly the entire region, burned every book, salted every field, poisoned every well, entire civilizations were erased and had to essentially start from ground zero- and they clearly haven't come close to making the ground back up with Europe.

SmileyEH

04-25-2005, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get how you can connect being a few generations from slavery to poverty.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon Sponger. Don't try to be dense.

-SmileyEH

Matty

04-25-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get how you can connect being a few generations from slavery to poverty.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon Sponger. Don't try to be dense.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]Yes I sense I was duped into wasting time. Back to homework..

Barry_G

04-25-2005, 03:06 PM

The real racism in this country is rich vs. poor. The really rich guys want you to believe that your problems are the other races fault. Poor white people and poor minorites are two sides of the same coin. They have many more similarities than differences. But as long as you stay divided, don't vote etc.. nothing is going to change except that your are going to worse off than you are now. By the way didn't their own people sell them into slavery.

Enough, I'm off to look at that great ass.

Sponger15SB

04-25-2005, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get how you can connect being a few generations from slavery to poverty.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon Sponger. Don't try to be dense.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]Yes I sense I was duped into wasting time. Back to homework..

[/ QUOTE ]

No seriously, I guess I just believed in social mobility?

I mean, if my parents were poor, I'd try and not be poor, right?

jackdaniels

04-25-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On topic, look at the Middle East. They started off way ahead of Europe in development of civilization, but after Attila the Hun (I think that's the guy) wiped out nearly the entire region, burned every book, salted every field, poisoned every well, entire civilizations were erased and had to essentially start from ground zero- and they clearly haven't come close to making the ground back up with Europe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Israeli society was formed not much more than 50 years ago on land that was practically one big swamp. They have the same civil society that Europe and North America have.

Laws that criminalize social activities - aka vice law - (prostitution, drugs, gambling and the prohibition of yesteryear) cause untold harm to any society, putting many of their number behind bars. Non minority groups usually have enough resources to get away with a fine rather than a conviction and jail time. It doesn't change the fact that the bad laws are applied across the board (black, white, brown or yellow), some groups just have more resources than others to fight convictions.

As for your middle east example, Israeli's had other things on their minds (like wars) - so not enough time to emulate stupid vice laws like their counterparts in north america.

Matty

04-25-2005, 03:24 PM

Also didn't European immigrants overtake the majority status in Israel from native Israelis a while ago?

jackdaniels

04-25-2005, 03:33 PM

Israeli society is divided into two distinct Jewish groups (we'll leave non-jews out of this). The group that emigrated from Eastern Europe (Ashkenazi jews) and the group that emigrated from North Africa/Middle East/Spain (Sepharadic jews). About 10 years ago, a group of half a million jews form Russia emigrated en-masse to Israel (into a population of slightly over 5 million). Thus, I wouldn't say they "overtook" them, but the "balance" may have changed with an extra 10% of the population being Ashkenazi.

I haven't been in Israel in over 10 years - any Israeli posters (PrayingMantis???) wanna comment on the current state of vice law in Israel? Proportion of population incarcerated for non-violent crime? I doubt it's anythign like north america...

Arnfinn Madsen

04-25-2005, 03:34 PM

This is a solvable problem but it demands political will and this political will does not exist.

jesusarenque

04-25-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever the number is, it raises the question:

What is wrong with their parents and community that allows so many willing criminals to develop?

They are not going to jail for random reasons, they are earning their way in by committing crimes, and a lack of good upbringing is a big part of the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an amazingly ignorant statement.

bwana devil

04-25-2005, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No seriously, I guess I just believed in social mobility?

I mean, if my parents were poor, I'd try and not be poor, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon sponger, youre not using much common sense. how are they supposed to capitalize on social mobility when up until a few decades ago blacks couldnt even attend the same colleges as whites? it's hard to achieve much when up until recently things were stacked against them to begin w/.

don't hold an entire culture back for 200 years and then wonder why they have economic problems once everyone's playing by the same rules.

Matty

04-25-2005, 03:43 PM

I take it back, it was the other way around. I guess that's what cramming for tests will do to you. For a political science course a while back we studied how the European-led Labour Party lost its long-time dominant party status to the Likud in '77 after an influx of immigrants from other areas of the Mid-east and Russia.

Luzion

04-25-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Really? This seems pretty obvious. You take group A, put them in the worst schools, worst neighborhoods, have laws discriminating against them, and give them no money. Then you take group B, give them enough money so that their annual inheritance transfers equal more than the GDP of the entire country, have the majority of them in the good schools, good neighborhoods, etc.

No matter who group A and B are comprised of, it's going to take many many many generations (I'm talking hundreds) for that imbalance to dissapear. In the span of things a hundred years is nothing. It's very hard to break out of cycles and move up in class and even in America it happens very rarely.

On topic, look at the Middle East. They started off way ahead of Europe in development of civilization, but after Attila the Hun (I think that's the guy) wiped out nearly the entire region, burned every book, salted every field, poisoned every well, entire civilizations were erased and had to essentially start from ground zero- and they clearly haven't come close to making the ground back up with Europe.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is obviously wrong. Good examples are the history of the immigration of Irish and Chinese to America. Both groups came penniless. Both were forced to live in specific poor neighborhoods. Both groups could only find work in the lowest unskilled work possible; building railroads, sewers, washing clothes, in dangerous factories, or being servants. Both groups were heavily discriminated in the beginning and were considered sub-human. Both groups were blamed for economic problems because they were willing to work for so low wages.

Now look where these groups are at today. In fact you can look at other immigrant groups and see they are not still stuck in some cycle of poverty. Your argument is not relevant at all.

csuf_gambler

04-25-2005, 03:45 PM

i was watching this documentary on HBO a couple years back. it was called "Thug Life in DC". heres a stat they used, "50% of all black men in DC ages 18-36 are either in prison or wanted in prison(warrant)."

scary.

Matty

04-25-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now look where these groups are at today.

[/ QUOTE ]Where are they? I'm going to guess you have absolutely no data on this.[ QUOTE ]
In fact you can look at other immigrant groups and see they are not still stuck in some cycle of poverty. Your argument is not relevant at all.

[/ QUOTE ]Immigrants are a lot different than former slaves.

jackdaniels

04-25-2005, 03:59 PM

I hate to agree with Sponger but he does have a point.

If you don't want to be poor, you don't have to! Crazy and radical as that statement may seem, you'll be surprised at how accurate it is.

I'll say it again, just so it sinks in:

If you don't want to be poor - I mean, if that is what you REALLY want to avoid, you can do it!

In north america (and most civilized countries around the world), hard work and determination will lift ANYONE out of poverty. Now, if you make choices like having multiple children (you can't afford to care for), leasing a BMW (you can't afford to put gas in), wearing name brand clothing/shoes (while you're scrounging your pockets for enough change to buy a cheeseburger) - you are probably going to remain poor for a very long time.

There is a difference between being poor because the cost of education is killing you (the broke student analogy) and being poor because your paycheque is spent long before you get it in your hands (gotta love visa!).

This idea that we all have a right to a plasma screen tv, a brand new car and some bling bling, even while we are working on improving our current station in life is foolish.

Luzion

04-25-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
cmon sponger, youre not using much common sense. how are they supposed to capitalize on social mobility when up until a few decades ago blacks couldnt even attend the same colleges as whites? it's hard to achieve much when up until recently things were stacked against them to begin w/.

don't hold an entire culture back for 200 years and then wonder why they have economic problems once everyone's playing by the same rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhh bwana, I hope you realize that all minorities were discriminated up to that point. Many minority groups have broken out of the povery cycle. But Blacks still have the lowest median income of all ethic groups in the US. Why?

Matty

04-25-2005, 04:05 PM

You and Sponger have a nice time analyzing the world based on what "could be" or "should be" from an individual's perspective.

Luzion

04-25-2005, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now look where these groups are at today.

[/ QUOTE ]Where are they? I'm going to guess you have absolutely no data on this.[ QUOTE ]
In fact you can look at other immigrant groups and see they are not still stuck in some cycle of poverty. Your argument is not relevant at all.

[/ QUOTE ]Immigrants are a lot different than former slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/income99/prs00asc.html

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/img/incpov99/fig06.gif

Looks like you guessed wrong Grey. Comments on this?

Im also interested in a more detailed explanation on how immigrants are different then former slaves. Both were heavily discriminated and started off working low paying menial jobs. What is the significant difference?

Voltron87

04-25-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want to be poor - I mean, if that is what you REALLY want to avoid, you can do it!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a lot harder when you grow up in the ghetto.

Matty

04-25-2005, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
uhh bwana, I hope you realize that all minorities were discriminated up to that point. Many minority groups have broken out of the povery cycle. But Blacks still have the lowest median income of all ethic groups in the US. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]I'll say it again.

1) You have no evidence of this. No data is available to support your hunch. The term "caucasian" is far too broad. There's no way to apply institutional racism on races that don't stand out from the dominant race.

2) A former slave population is much different than a much much smaller immigrant population.

Matty

04-25-2005, 04:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/income99/prs00asc.html

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/img/incpov99/fig06.gif

Looks like you guessed wrong Grey. Comments on this?

[/ QUOTE ]No, I didn't. I don't see "Irish" or Chinese" anywhere in those two links.

You're not worth the time. Have fun with yourself fuhrer.

Edit: And a 30 year span?! Nice job measuring absolutely nothing.

Luzion

04-25-2005, 04:19 PM

Grey... I think I responded okay to your argument. Given I dont have all the time in the world to kowtow to your requests, I feel I gave you sufficient evidence and a decent explanation. Now, I could kiss your butt and do what you demand, explain in detail about Irish American's rise to power in American Politics or give specific details on Chinese American's median income, non-existent crime statistics, and education levels.

The burden of proof isnt on me alone you know. You are the one that made the argument first with no evidence.

Also your arguments suck. Elaborate on #1 and #2 please. You repeated #2 twice already without elaborating. Im gonna guess you don't even want to argue about this because you have no idea what you are talking about.

WHY DONT YOU PROVIDE SOME EVIDENCE? /images/graemlins/grin.gif Its on you now.

jackdaniels

04-25-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's a lot harder when you grow up in the ghetto.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the kind of attitude that keeps people in the ghetto.

No offence to the plight of former slaves, but it has been quite a while since the "roots" generation. Israeli society (which another poster brought up) managed to go from concentration camps and practical genocide to a thriving, modern society. Other groups who faced discrimination and prejudice managed to overcome and escape said "ghettos". Anyone who thinks the black population in the US is somehow incapable of this is being a racist. Anyone who thinks black americans need afirmative action to "right the wrongs" of the past is being a racist. anyone who thinks living in a ghetto is a uniquely black experience is simply mis-informed. Now that you know better, spread the word to your brothers out there, there is no reason they have to continue believing the crap being shoved down their throats by the local politician, clergyman, gang banger and other misc. cretin.

All people not staring down the barrel of a shotgun have a choice. It's up to you how to excersize that choice.

Voltron87

04-25-2005, 04:32 PM

A lot of young black men do try to become rich, they sell crack.

Luzion

04-25-2005, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/income99/prs00asc.html

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/img/incpov99/fig06.gif

Looks like you guessed wrong Grey. Comments on this?

[/ QUOTE ]No, I didn't. I don't see "Irish" or Chinese" anywhere in those two links.

You're not worth the time. Have fun with yourself fuhrer.

Edit: And a 30 year span?! Nice job measuring absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Fuhrer? Can someone say Ad Hominem? Btw, Im chinese american so please call me a dirty chink communist at the very least.

Yes, Im not worth the time. Forget the fact that you already invested 11 posts in this thread already and Im the only one that bothered to respond to your argument in as logical a fashion as I could while bothering to scrouge up some evidence. I really like your pre-emptive strike in saying Im not worth the time before its your turn to argue back with absolutely nothing.

Later Grey...
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bwana devil

04-25-2005, 04:36 PM

Your plan sounds really fantastic as long as you never factor in any American race history whatsoever. Sign me up for your racial utopia.

I talk about the larger scale social problems that a culture faces but you responded on the personal micro level.

If you want to talk on the micro level, I’ll give you one example you can address: I have a coworker who is in his late 50s who is black. He graduated towards the top of his high school class. He went to a local all black college in town because the University of Texas wouldn’t accept him because of his race. Now how much do you think that has cost him throughout his career having that rinky dinky college name on his transcript rather than a major university on his transcript?

Phoenix1010

04-25-2005, 04:38 PM

Hmm... this discussion is too important for an internet message board. No one's going to change anyone else's mind here. My only question is how do some of the things that Istewart posts slip by? Are you all friends with this guy? I realize that in a presumably predominantly young white community some of these things might get by as mildly amusing, completely because the group being made fun of has almost zero representation, but I find it hard to believe someone can say some of these things and still be accepted. My thinking is less about whether anyone is being politically correct than it is about whether thinly veiled bigotry is being deemed acceptable. I'm out of touch with the way message boards work though, so maybe this stuff is the norm. It does seem that the biggest assholes get the most respect here. Still surprising though.

Matty

04-25-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Grey... I think I responded okay to your argument. Given I dont have all the time in the world to kowtow to your requests

[/ QUOTE ]You implied blacks were an inferior race to Chinese and Irish because Irish and Chinese overcame poverty while blacks did not when there is no evidence this happened. You also claimed that blacks were far below every other race when it comes to income, when you own chart shows "hispanics" to be equal with blacks.

Now here's something that's going to blow your mind: Many of the "white" in your chart are actually hispanic Europeans who just lived someplace different for a few hundred years.

There is no data collected for "Chinese who are descendants of immigrants who had nothing". There are going to be rich Chinese immigrants in there throwing off the curve. But beyond that, you don't have any data on Chinese in general. In fact, the "Asian American" data you gave was only over the span of 10 friggin years. Whereas you can be assured that of African Americans nearly all started at ground zero just a few generations ago.

Evidence that it takes many hundreds of years for a race to overcome being the slaves in a country can not only be found in any entry level history or sociology class, but it is also common sense.

Some of the differences between immigrants coming up from poverty and former slaves coming up from poverty are 1) an inherent animosity from the ruling class towards the race that was recently freed and an inherent perception within the country's culture about where the freed class belongs, 2) in our case blacks are easily identified, 3) Blacks are rightfully distrustful of the system and the authority in this country, 4) immigrant populations are much smaller and more mobile so selectively choosing one of them to measure is completely worthless.

You've already gotten more of my time than you deserve. I'm out.

mmbt0ne

04-25-2005, 04:47 PM

What percentage of blacks in America today are descendents of slaves?

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!

04-25-2005, 04:52 PM

prison makes for VERY cheap labor. We gotta keep up w/ japan...

Luzion

04-25-2005, 05:04 PM

Very nice response Grey.

[ QUOTE ]
You implied blacks were an inferior race to Chinese and Irish because Irish and Chinese overcame poverty while blacks did not when there is no evidence this happened. You also claimed that blacks were far below every other race when it comes to income, when you own chart shows "hispanics" to be equal with blacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sorry that you thought I "implied" anything. I said "a good example is ..." It was a response that attempted to disprove your original argument. DUH. As opposed to you calling me "Fuhrer" outright. It doesnt take a genius to see what you were "implying" there. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Now here's something that's going to blow your mind: Many of the "white" in your chart are actually hispanic Europeans who just lived someplace different for a few hundred years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are they? I'm going to guess you have absolutely no data on this.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no data collected for "Chinese who are descendants of immigrants who had nothing". There are going to be rich Chinese immigrants in there throwing off the curve. But beyond that, you don't have any data on Chinese in general. In fact, the "Asian American" data you gave was only over the span of 10 friggin years. Whereas you can be assured that of African Americans nearly all started at ground zero just a few generations ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa whoa whoa... are you implying that second or third generation chinese americans are inferior to newly immigrated chinese americans? Btw, wheres your evidence that newly immigrated Chinese Americans are rich and skew the statistics? I could present my evidence for my point of view on this subject, but Im still waiting for you to prove your initial statements.

[ QUOTE ]
Evidence that it takes many hundreds of years for a race to overcome being the slaves in a country can not only be found in any entry level history or sociology class, but it is also common sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever taken a science class? Common sense is not science. Common sense tells us the earth is flat and that the sun really does rise and set. That should tell you that common sense is not a valid argument and that many truths are far from common sense.

I'll say it again.

1) You have no evidence of this. No data is available to support your hunch.

bwana devil

04-25-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But Blacks still have the lowest median income of all ethic groups in the US. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

slavery, segregation, jim crow laws, institutional racism

Matty

04-25-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But Blacks still have the lowest median income of all ethic groups in the US. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]
slavery, segregation, jim crow laws, institutional racism

[/ QUOTE ]It's not a question he wants answered. He won't believe the answer.

They have the lowest median income mostly for the same reason that women make on average >10k less than men regardless of race, despite their better college graduation rates and GPAs. I guess it's just really hard for some people who have never experienced discrimination to accept the fact that it exists.

Luzion

04-25-2005, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But Blacks still have the lowest median income of all ethic groups in the US. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]
slavery, segregation, jim crow laws, institutional racism

[/ QUOTE ]It's not a question he wants answered. He won't believe the answer.

They have the lowest median income mostly for the same reason that women make on average ~10k less than men regardless of race, despite their better GPAs and attention spans. I guess it's just really hard for people who have never experienced discrimination to accept the fact that it exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont make me laugh Grey. Are you black? Im just curious because you are implying that you understand because you've been discriminated.

I already stated im chinese american. I can regurgitate history like how chinese americans were looked at as sub-human during the gold rush, or how they were unfairly taxed and basically imprisoned inside Chinatown, or about the Chinese Exclusion Act, or i could show you various racist cartoons of stereotyped chinese that are washing clothes.

Or would you prefer present time stories of me traveling to the east coast and have kids yell "ching chong long bong gong" from across the street and have the desk clerks look at my family strange. Or how people joke that I should help them with their math homework after they learn Im chinese. Or how affirmative action hurt my chances at college applications.

Or how about in movies where asians are always portrayed as kung fu masters or doctors. Or what about when Shaq said tell Yao Ming "ching-chong-yang-wah-ah-soh." That was pretty funny btw, having a black guy for once, make a borderline racist statement.

I dont think you want to pull that "you wouldnt understand because youve never been discriminated" card on me man. You look stupid in doing so.

bholdr

04-25-2005, 05:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And this is obviously wrong. Good examples are the history of the immigration of Irish and Chinese to America. Both groups came penniless. Both were forced to live in specific poor neighborhoods. Both groups could only find work in the lowest unskilled work possible; building railroads, sewers, washing clothes, in dangerous factories, or being servants. Both groups were heavily discriminated in the beginning and were considered sub-human. Both groups were blamed for economic problems because they were willing to work for so low wages.

Now look where these groups are at today. In fact you can look at other immigrant groups and see they are not still stuck in some cycle of poverty. Your argument is not relevant at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's your alternitive hypothesis? you're argument is an apples and oarnges thing: africans in the U.S. were heavily discriminated against less than two generations ago... they still are, in many places.

04-25-2005, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Whas up wit da brothas?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dey live fo da Ganja, man.

http://mx.geocities.com/dread_looks/Ganja/bobganja.jpg

Eihli

04-25-2005, 06:56 PM

It wasn't a statement. It was a question. And I don't see why you would call a question ignorant since the person asking it is admitting they are ignorant to the answer by asking it in the first place.

purnell

04-25-2005, 07:23 PM

"What is wrong with their parents and community that allows so many willing criminals to develop?"
-broken glass can

I live, by choice, in a "colorful" (read urban, relatively poor, and racially mixed) neighborhood. I can afford "better", but these people are real, if that makes any sense, and I'm comfortable with it because I have no kids and this is the kind of people I came from.

Anyway, my experience says that poor education and poverty lead to the overuse of drugs (including alcohol) to escape despair. Sex is about the only healthy pleasure available to alot of poor folks, and for reasons that are beyond my comprehension, birth control seems to be a government enforced tabboo. Thus you have poorly educated, poverty stricken people making babies all the time. Unless they happen to find a good example to follow, these babies grow up believing that the only way out of their misery is through crime, mostly drug peddling (which ought not to be a crime IMO, but that is another subject).

Thus these kids end up in prison. There is of course an element of racism in most law-enforcement agencies, but the reason our prisons are disproprtionately black is mostly because poor folks in the U.S. are disproprtionately black.

edit: grammar

purnell

04-25-2005, 07:33 PM

Did someone force you to click this link?

Blarg

04-25-2005, 09:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever the number is, it raises the question:

What is wrong with their parents and community that allows so many willing criminals to develop?

They are not going to jail for random reasons, they are earning their way in by committing crimes, and a lack of good upbringing is a big part of the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an amazingly ignorant statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

The staggering amount of ignorance is why these discussions are by and large useless, especially on this board.

SinCityGuy

04-25-2005, 09:23 PM

That's a pretty low VP$IP. They should be playing more starting hands.

purnell

04-25-2005, 10:01 PM

Sorry to hijack, but...

"Immigrants are a lot different than former slaves. "

Indeed they are. My great-grandfather (only one for simplicity) immigrated in the early part of this century[edit /images/graemlins/blush.gif the 20th century], partly to escape an oppressive government, but mostly seeking economic oppourtunity. The average American black person's great-(great-great, maybe) grandfather was the child of slaves who were themselves the children of slaves, etc. Violently discouraged from self-improvement, and with nowhere to escape to, he did whatever he had to in order to survive.

Do you see the difference yet, luzion?

mmbt0ne

04-25-2005, 10:53 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
The average American black person's great-(great-great, maybe) grandfather was the child of slaves who were themselves the children of slaves, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

People keep saying this, but no one answered my question. What percentage of blacks in America today are descendents of slaves? I really don't know, and would like to.

bwana devil

04-25-2005, 10:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What percentage of blacks in America today are descendents of slaves? I really don't know, and would like to.

[/ QUOTE ]

so then why arent you researching this? sounds interesting.

purnell

04-25-2005, 10:58 PM

I honestly don't know, but "most of them" is a safe answer. Until recently, there haven't been that many Africans clamoring to come to America, and U.S. immigration policy was skewed to favor Europeans. I thus conclude that it is reasonable to say that most black Americans have recent ancestors who were slaves.

mmbt0ne

04-25-2005, 11:03 PM

I'm trying, but the only sites that have even put up a number so far are racist sites saying the true crime of slavery was "bringing Negroes into a white society." I'll keep you updated if I find anything, I was just hoping that maybe someone already knew.

mmbt0ne

04-25-2005, 11:05 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
I honestly don't know, but "most of them" is a safe answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree, but I like numbers.

PoBoy321

04-25-2005, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did someone force you to click this link?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a politics forum and an OOT forum for a reason. Lately OOT has been getting clogged up with [censored] that doesn't belong here, and people really need to realize that there's a politics forum for a reason.

bwana devil

04-25-2005, 11:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying, but the only sites that have even put up a number so far are racist sites saying the true crime of slavery was "bringing Negroes into a white society." I'll keep you updated if I find anything, I was just hoping that maybe someone already knew.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can appreciate that answer. if i think of any sources, ill check them out.

Dead

04-25-2005, 11:23 PM

This is all very fascinating(not), but I'm not concerned with the incarceration rate by race.

People who commit violent crimes should be incarcerated, regardless of their race. It's just as simple as that. And they should all get the same sentence length too- long.

Luzion

04-25-2005, 11:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Violently discouraged from self-improvement, and with nowhere to escape to, he did whatever he had to in order to survive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats your argument? We already discussed this. Discourages from self-improvement, nowhere to escape to, and doing what you have to do to survive? Sounds awfully like the situation the Irish were in when they first came over here. Or even the Chinese.

Theres only one argument people ever have left in these discussions. Forget all about Greys argument about Group A and B and that its "very hard to break out of cycles and move up in class and even in America it happens very rarely." Though its obvious to everyone that there are many examples of immigrants or their offspring achieving the American dream with the same obstacles that Group A had.

The only argument people ever have left is the "white mans trying to bring us down" argument. Thats the only thing Grey had left to say by comparing Black median incomes to median incomes of females in the workforce (which is a sharp contrast from his original argument). Okay fine, thats another argument.

Just dont give me that crap on how boo-fcking-hoo they live in the ghetto. I guess they are destined-to-be-poor crap. Group A vs Group B crap.

I support JackDaniels point. If you agree with the point that its hard to break out of the poverty cycle while living in the ghetto, when other groups have, you are basically saying that black people are completely useless. When you support things like affirmative action, you are saying black people are so useless that they need a crutch.

Dead

04-25-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When you support things like affirmative action, you are saying black people are so useless that they need a crutch.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I like affirmative action because I enjoy watching marginally intelligent white people struggle to get into college.

Seriously, though, affirmative action is not that big of a deal. Smart white people are still going to have no trouble getting into the colleges that they want and finding the jobs that they want.

jesusarenque

04-25-2005, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When you support things like affirmative action, you are saying black people are so useless that they need a crutch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incorrect.

RogerZBT

04-25-2005, 11:36 PM

Ok... This won't be very scientific, but according to the 2002 census, there were 36 million blacks in America. Latin America's total is 17 million. The Caribbean, where most non-slave descendant blacks would come from, made up about 1/5 of that or about 3.4 million. I have no way to break it down further, but I'd guess 85-90% is a decent starting point.

[censored]

04-25-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is all very fascinating(not), but I'm not concerned with the incarceration rate by race.

People who commit violent crimes should be incarcerated, regardless of their race. It's just as simple as that. And they should all get the same sentence length too- long.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am stunned that I agree with Dead. I'm not sure what that means.

Good post.

mmbt0ne

04-25-2005, 11:42 PM

I think that's a good range. According to this Harvard article (http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html) 89.7% of blacks in America are 4th generation or more. Discounting for the random few free blacks from back then, and the few who came over between slavery's end, and 4 generations ago, I don't think the number can be less than 80%, and probably not less than 85%.

Dead

04-25-2005, 11:44 PM

You do realize that it is damned near impossible to figure out how many "black" people there are in the United States, right? There are a ton of biracial kids out there, and someone who is 1/4 black and 3/4 white is still black in my book. Derek Jeter is black. And lots of Cubans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, etc. are black as well. Taking all of that biracial stuff into account as well, it makes administering affirmative action programs very hard. Lots of people who "look white" probably have a black ancestor somewhere. They could make a claim.

[censored]

04-25-2005, 11:45 PM

I don't like affirmative action but I agree that really it is not that big of a deal.

istewart

04-25-2005, 11:47 PM

It's lame.

Dead

04-25-2005, 11:48 PM

It's just a band-aid that Gray favors. I personally don't give a [censored] about it(AA), because it doesn't affect me. But if it makes him feel better, because he thinks that it will help blacks a lot(I don't think it really matters), then I guess that's a good thing.

When you put unqualified people into good colleges, they end up failing out anyway. I guess they can tell their kids that they spent a year at Cornell before failing out. Wowie.

Maybe they would have been better off going to an easier college. That goes for unqualified people of all races.

But, hey, so many of these things are done because they feel good, rather than because they actually work. And if it makes Gray feel better about himself, then what the heck.

istewart

04-25-2005, 11:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When you put unqualified people into good colleges, then they end up failing out anyway. So they can tell their kids that they spent a year at Cornell before failing out. Wowie.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true but it's still a big waste of everyone's time, money, and efforts to put them there so they can show everyone they can fail.

Dead

04-25-2005, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you put unqualified people into good colleges, then they end up failing out anyway. So they can tell their kids that they spent a year at Cornell before failing out. Wowie.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true but it's still a big waste of everyone's time, money, and efforts to put them there so they can show everyone they can fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, now. You don't find it the least bit amusing? It may cost a lot of money but I like watching the engineering. I like watching the debates.

It's like our own SimCity.

OtisTheMarsupial

04-26-2005, 12:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want to be poor - I mean, if that is what you REALLY want to avoid, you can do it!

In north america (and most civilized countries around the world), hard work and determination will lift ANYONE out of poverty. Now, if you make choices like having multiple children (you can't afford to care for), leasing a BMW (you can't afford to put gas in), wearing name brand clothing/shoes (while you're scrounging your pockets for enough change to buy a cheeseburger) - you are probably going to remain poor for a very long time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This simply isn't true.

For one thing, you forgot knowledge. People need more than determination and hard work, they need knowledge and skills.

(Isn't that why most people here read the 2+2 books and forum? Because they realize how important knowledge and skill are to being successful?)

Public schools don't teach many essential life skills people need these days, such as how to budget, how to get and maintain high credit scores, how to interview for jobs, how to keep a job/kiss boss-ass/move up the ladder, how to avoid dangerous relationships, et cetera, et cetera...

So, if they don't seek that information for themselves (which they probably won't do until they realize it's necessary, which usually won't happen until they've already screwed something up pretty bad...)

Granted, our society affords most people ample opportunity to escape or avoid poverty. Problem is, they have a hard time seeing it. There's something called the "culture of poverty" where poor people actually believe they are relatively helpless.

It's no wonder though, because they have so many obstacles to overcome. For instance, heavy marketing and a labor surplus. Our economy doesn't work without a labor surplus, so inevitably, some people are out of work. Otherwise, there would be no competition for jobs and theoretically production would go down because people would be "too secure" in their jobs to work hard and so on and so forth...

Heavy marketing unfortunately affects all kinds of people. It really just takes education and experience to 1)tell the difference between ads and non-ads (seriously, children in particular have a very difficult time distinguishing between television shows and television commercials - this is what McDonald's cashes in on) and 2)learn to not be tempted by heavy marketing, to make your own decisions, think for yourself and not be unduly influenced...

Sorry, going on a rant...

Suffice it to say, a higher percentage of blacks are in prison because:

1)blacks are more often poor and poor people can't afford good attorneys, as well, poor people more often commit the types of crimes (classed as "violent" because, though they usually harm fewer people, they involve the use of deadly weapons or force) that carry heavier sentences (such as mugging vs. embezzeling),

2)blacks more often use drugs that carry longer sentences than the drugs preferred by whites (crack cocaine vs. powder, white coke) and a huge percentage of the prison population is in there for drugs, and

3)racism among judges and juries

-Otis the long-winded

Loci

04-26-2005, 01:12 AM

It's hard not to see these numbers when you get pulled over for "driving while black." My best friend just got another ticket for "illegal blinker use." Evidently he shifted lanes and didn't turn it off in ten seconds... If this ticket was enforced in florida, they wouldn't be 43rd in education.

Matty

04-27-2005, 05:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dont make me laugh Grey. Are you black? Im just curious because you are implying that you understand because you've been discriminated.

[/ QUOTE ]Noting that you're showing how hard it apparently is for people who haven't been discriminated against to recognize discrimination when there is abundant evidence of it in no way implies that I am discriminated against. You're making some impressive jumps of logic superman.[ QUOTE ]
I already stated im chinese american. ... Or how people joke that I should help them with their math homework after they learn Im chinese.

Or how about in movies where asians are always portrayed as kung fu masters or doctors. Or what about when Shaq said tell Yao Ming "ching-chong-yang-wah-ah-soh."

[/ QUOTE ]Those are positive stereotypes you bloody moron and have nothing to do with discrimination or racism. Get your crybaby ass out of here. We can all find instances when our ancestors were discriminated against. Hell, 6 million of mine were cooked, and my other ancestors were victims of genocide on this very continent.

Psychological studies also prove that if you feed a person positive stereotypes, his performance will improve. If you take two kids with equal IQs, imply to one that he is smart before an IQ test, and imply to the other that he probably won't do well before the test, and the first kid will score remarkably higher on the IQ test. Is that not evidence of a cycle?
[ QUOTE ]
Where are they? I'm going to guess you have absolutely no data on this.

[/ QUOTE ]See: Christopher Columbus.

If a black man and a white man turn in a resume at the same place with the same qualifications, but the white man is a felon whereas the black man has a clean record, the white man is much more likely to get a call back. This is not a "hunch"- it has been proven to be true in America. I believe the study was done last year.

Evidence that blacks are being artificially held down in this country is all around you, and for you to not recognize it is a pathetic failure on your part.

What is your explanation for their high incarceration rates and low median incomes? I would really like to hear.

mmbt0ne

04-27-2005, 05:54 AM

If you don't mind answering another question Grey, why do you think Caribbean descendents of slaves have such a higher median income than American descendents of slaves? I believe this has been shown pretty convincingly, but I could be wrong. It's just another part of this situation that confuses me.

Matty

04-27-2005, 05:57 AM

Could you be more specific, and maybe provide a link?

J_V

04-27-2005, 06:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I realize that in a presumably predominantly young white community some of these things might get by as mildly amusing, completely because the group being made fun of has almost zero representation, but I find it hard to believe someone can say some of these things and still be accepted. My thinking is less about whether anyone is being politically correct than it is about whether thinly veiled bigotry is being deemed acceptable. I'm out of touch with the way message boards work though, so maybe this stuff is the norm. It does seem that the biggest assholes get the most respect here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. Nicely done. If most of these people are anything like what they portray themselves on these boards, they are despicable.

mmbt0ne

04-27-2005, 06:07 AM

Sure. This was the first thing I found.

"African Americans had a significant disadvantage in income, with just 16.1 percent estimated to have a family income of $60,000 or more, compared with 26.2 percent of Afro-Caribbeans and whites. Educationally, African Americans were disadvantaged as well, with 37.4 percent, compared to 51.9 percent of Afro-Caribbeans and 54 percent of whites, reporting that they had attended some college or earned a college degree."

http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0304/Jan26_04/02.shtml

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 06:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]

1)blacks are more often poor and poor people can't afford good attorneys, as well, poor people more often commit the types of crimes (classed as "violent" because, though they usually harm fewer people, they involve the use of deadly weapons or force) that carry heavier sentences (such as mugging vs. embezzeling),

2)blacks more often use drugs that carry longer sentences than the drugs preferred by whites (crack cocaine vs. powder, white coke) and a huge percentage of the prison population is in there for drugs, and

3)racism among judges and juries

-Otis the long-winded

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you talking about innocent people being wrongly convicted here or are you talking about guilty people getting fuller sentences? If you have committed no crime it should be easy for a cheap (free) lawyer to get you acquitted. I really think the percentage of innocent people being convicted for crimes is very very low. Even if the percentage of innocent people being convicted for crimes is greater for minorities it really shouldn’t add up to 13% of their population.

Let me say there are probably many reasons for there being so many blacks in prison and that your stated reasons very likely contribute to the problem, but I don’t think that the bulk of the problem is because of these reasons.

Matty

04-27-2005, 06:29 AM

I don't know anything about the history of Afro-Caribbeans, or who exactly they are even.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 06:31 AM

Post deleted by Tacjedi

mmbt0ne

04-27-2005, 06:31 AM

Fair enough. Thanks anyway.

Matty

04-27-2005, 06:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that he is referring to Caribbean people who are descended from slaves. Generally came to the new world via the same process. (not a nice one)

[/ QUOTE ]So Africans who were taken to the Caribbean as slaves then immigrated to the U.S.?

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 06:56 AM

I really don't know that is why I deleted my post. I was just taking a guess. I skimmed over the page that he got the figures from and I think that it means people still in the caribbean.

mmbt0ne

04-27-2005, 06:59 AM

I was hoping the data would represnt African-Caribbean-Americans if that makes sense, but I'm not sure if that's what it refers to.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 07:01 AM

I think that he is trying to nullify slavery as a cause because the people who descend from the same sort of slavery in a different place aren’t having the same degree of problems.

I however can't really know what he is trying to say.

mmbt0ne

04-27-2005, 07:07 AM

You know, sometimes I'm just interested as to why certain statistics break down how they do. If you think I'm trying to minimize the impact slavery had on black people, I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 07:16 AM

I was wrong in what I thought you were trying to say.

Let me however say this. I do not think that slavery is the cause of the current problem of ending up in prison. I think that slavery and other raciest issues are stressors on the communities that these individuals are coming from, but that the culture of these areas has more self guidance than that. Slavery sucked, but it was a long time ago. Nobody is so underprivileged that they think that crime can’t get them into prison. They simply don’t feel the risk outweighs the reward.

mmbt0ne

04-27-2005, 07:24 AM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
Let me however say this. I do not think that slavery is the cause of the current problem of ending up in prison. I think that slavery and other raciest issues are stressors on the communities that these individuals are coming from, but that the culture of these areas has more self guidance than that. Slavery sucked, but it was a long time ago. Nobody is so underprivileged that they think that crime can’t get them into prison. They simply don’t feel the risk outweighs the reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much my exact thinking. Directly, slavery probably has little to no effect on the prison stats. However, like you said, I think it led to other stressors which have affected the community in a negative fashion.

I can also see how the questions I've asked in this thread can be construed as playing down slavery. Honestly, there just interesting questions that I don't have an answer to. I'm not trying to get an arguement started by asking loaded questions. In fact, people who's arguements consist of asking such questions tend to be those who don't have a good enough grasp on the subject to state a case instead.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 07:31 AM

I do admit that these stressors exist but I don’t see why they can’t be overcome to the point of keeping out of jail. I don’t expect to see people jumping from ghetto to upper income brackets, but come on is it that hard to not commit felonies?

If a cop pulls you over because you are black that sucks, but if you are arrested for having crack you are going to jail because you had crack not a racist cop.

Matty

04-27-2005, 07:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If a cop pulls you over because you are black that sucks, but if you are arrested for having crack you are going to jail because you had crack not a racist cop.

[/ QUOTE ]But blacks are much more often convicted on drug charges, and drugs that black use more often have heavier penalties despite not being any worse. This leads to much higher incarceration rates, more animosity, more hopelessness, more poverty (can't make money in jail), and your perception that blacks are doing a lot more drugs than whites.

Also, your statement isn't entirely correct. You can't get arrested if you didn't get pulled over in the first place. If 10% of whites and blacks are doing drugs in their cars, but 50% of blacks are pulled over while 20% of whites are, well, you can see where I'm going with this. Conviction rates are not the best indicators of crime rates.

Really poor people are more prone to commit most non-drug related crimes for a variety of reasons, access to good mental mental health help and desperation being some of them, and since blacks are artificially artificially pushed into that poor status (not to mention their communities were handicapped by thousands of years when they had to start at ground zero after the Civil War), you see more crimes from them on average, which leads to stereotypes, which leads to racism in the system, which leads to artificially pushing blacks down economically. And on and on and on.

Brainwalter

04-27-2005, 08:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If a black man and a white man turn in a resume at the same place with the same qualifications, but the white man is a felon whereas the black man has a clean record, the white man is much more likely to get a call back. This is not a "hunch"- it has been proven to be true in America. I believe the study was done last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to have to see a link to believe that one.

Matty

04-27-2005, 08:58 AM

http://www.careerjournal.com/myc/diversity/20030916-wessel.html

http://www.careerjournal.com/images/myc/20030916-wessel.gif
Edit: not 'felon', but 'ex-con'. My mistake.

tolbiny

04-27-2005, 09:05 AM

I believe he was referring to the statement about upbringing after the question.

Brainwalter

04-27-2005, 09:15 AM

Yes OK, ex-con vs felon makes pretty big difference; also you said "much more likely" when the difference in question was 17 vs 14 percent, and the article emphasizes how close they are (white ex-con and black non-con).

So I stand by my disbelief of your statement as originally worded.

Interesting link though.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, your statement isn't entirely correct. You can't get arrested if you didn't get pulled over in the first place. If 10% of whites and blacks are doing drugs in their cars, but 50% of blacks are pulled over while 20% of whites are, well, you can see where I'm going with this. Conviction rates are not the best indicators of crime rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is they still are committing the crimes. If they stop it then no amount of disparity in profiling is going to affect them. I think racist cops suck, but not as much as criminals.

I do agree that it is kind of bogus that possession/sale of different drugs carries different penalties, but I think the solution is real simple. Stop possessing/selling drugs! I fault the criminals for being in prison not the system. If the only people we had to worry about getting screwed by the system were completely and truthfully innocent then the problem could be solved very quickly and easily.

Matty

04-27-2005, 05:09 PM

And if only people would stop having unprotected sex, abortion would never happen.

Let me know when you find that magic wand. In the meantime we in the real world have a racist judicial system to deal with.

Dex

04-27-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And if only people would stop having unprotected sex, abortion would never happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

People would never happen either.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 05:23 PM

It isn't magic, just people being responsible for their own actions. It seems to be that you want to blame the system and I want to blame individuals. It is obvious that we are never going to agree. I admit that there are many problems w/ the system, but a responsible person should really be able to overcome these problems w/o difficulty.

I am Caucasian, but I am aware of profiling. I cross the U.S./Canada border often. I very very often cross the border with minorities. I think that some of the profiling is more cultural as when my and the best words I can use to describe them is “Thug” friends cross we are more often stopped and searched then my “Abercrombie and Fitch” minority friends and I.

The neat thing is that we are always let go even when we were profiled. This is because we aren’t trafficking drugs!!!

Ogre

04-27-2005, 06:00 PM

When a black child is born they have a gutshot draw to get a buttshot.

Broken Glass Can

04-27-2005, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When a black child is born they have a gutshot draw to get a buttshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, the political correctness people in the schools have really done a job on the minds of our kids. To think people actually believe you are predestined to go jail when you are born.

Very few black people in jail are innocent, just as very few white people in jail are innocent. Jail is a choice, you chose by the lifestyle you lead and the critical decisions you make.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jail is a choice, you chose by the lifestyle you lead and the critical decisions you make.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Matty

04-27-2005, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is obvious that we are never going to agree.

[/ QUOTE ]No, we will never agree that black people should be held to a higher standard than white people when it comes to crime.

You seem to greatly misunderstand my argument. I'm not saying more blacks should get off than currently are. I'm saying white criminals should be prosecuted and sentenced just as harshly for doing the same crimes. Yes, criminals are to blame for their behavior, but there is also a problem with the system when white criminals are obvoiusly getting off scott-free and roaming our streets.

However, once our laws were applied fairly and equally, I think we'd see such a boom in our prison populations that we would have to seriously reconsider some of our ridiculous drug laws.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, we will never agree that black people should be held to a higher standard than white people when it comes to crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think that they should but it is obvious to everyone that they are, so it really shouldn’t be such a hurdle to overcome. Yes it sucks, but so do a lot of things. I think this goes back to some of what Luzion was saying. Things have not been fair for a lot of different groups, but none of the inequitable situations in this country should result in imprisonment today.

Tacjedi

04-27-2005, 06:21 PM

I will let you have the last word on this one Grey, as this is a loaded topic and neither of us are going to make any improvements for anyone. Good luck to you and have a nice day.

GrunchCan

04-27-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, if my parents were poor, I'd try and not be poor, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

But you would have less leverage to effect your will. It takes money to make money. Poor people are at a disadvantage becasue they are poor, if for no other reason.

Luzion

04-27-2005, 08:50 PM

First you infer that I was implying that I thought Chinese and the Irish were superior to Blacks. No buddy, that was my example that set out to prove your Group A and Group B theory was bogus.

Second, my post was to educate you on the fact that I am not blind to discrimination because of my personal experience of it. You claim "it's not a question he wants answered. He won't believe the answer.... I guess it's just really hard for people who have never experienced discrimination to accept the fact that it exists. " My post was to respond to that. I dont care for your condescending comments like "You're making some impressive jumps of logic superman."

[ QUOTE ]
Noting that you're showing how hard it apparently is for people who haven't been discriminated against to recognize discrimination when there is abundant evidence of it in no way implies that I am discriminated against. You're making some impressive jumps of logic superman.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell are you talking about? YOU are the one that claims people cant recognize discrimination because they've never experienced it. THis quote look familar?

[ QUOTE ]
They have the lowest median income mostly for the same reason that women make on average >10k less than men regardless of race, despite their better college graduation rates and GPAs. I guess it's just really hard for some people who have never experienced discrimination to accept the fact that it exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

..... you said it, not me

[ QUOTE ]
Those are positive stereotypes you bloody moron and have nothing to do with discrimination or racism. Get your crybaby ass out of here. We can all find instances when our ancestors were discriminated against. Hell, 6 million of mine were cooked, and my other ancestors were victims of genocide on this very continent.

[/ QUOTE ]

That statement alone shows how ridiculous your arguments are. Shaq making fun of the chinese language is a positive stereotype? Assuming all Chinese people are good at math is a positive stereotype? You are dumber then I thought. There is no such thing as a good stereotype.

Imagine if you were a chinese guy that wasnt good at math and your boss made you do some extra work because he assumed all chinese people love crunching numbers. Thats real positive. Or if same said boss made you work overtime every week because he "knows" how all chinese people are hard workers. "Hey, hes chinese. He can handle it. Haha."

So on the topic, I guess you are saying its okay to say that stereotypes of all Black people are good at sports and all Black can sing the blues real well? Those sound like "good stereotypes." Is that what you're saying? I would love to hear some stories of people snickering at black kids on their college campuses because they thought they could only get in with a sports scholarship.

[ QUOTE ]
Psychological studies also prove that if you feed a person positive stereotypes, his performance will improve. If you take two kids with equal IQs, imply to one that he is smart before an IQ test, and imply to the other that he probably won't do well before the test, and the first kid will score remarkably higher on the IQ test. Is that not evidence of a cycle?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wheres you evidence on this? Its not like you to not back up your arguments with evidence? Are you going to tell me about the mozart effect too? And no, thats not evidence of a cycle. Its retarded to think so when its already been discussed that other groups have broken out of the "cycle" despite being viewed extremely negatively early on.

[ QUOTE ]
If a black man and a white man turn in a resume at the same place with the same qualifications, but the white man is a felon whereas the black man has a clean record, the white man is much more likely to get a call back. This is not a "hunch"- it has been proven to be true in America. I believe the study was done last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cite and or link? And whats your point? I thought your whole argument was the Group A and Group B thing.

[ QUOTE ]
Evidence that blacks are being artificially held down in this country is all around you, and for you to not recognize it is a pathetic failure on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blacks are artificially being held down, eh? So your argument simply boils down to "the white mans trying to bring us down" argument right? Blacks are being discriminated either because they were former slaves or a negative stereotype that they are nothing more then drug dealers and lazy thieves? THanks for wasting my time on your initial Group A and Group B argument.

Oh, and one more thing. Its awfully ironic that you go about talking about how Blacks are discriminated and that how other people wouldnt understand this. Then you open your big mouth and say Hey those stereotypes are fine! Those are good stereotypes! Hurray for blanket statements!

http://www.tipatat.com/artworks/stereotypes/gifs/nerd.gif

Your truly,
An Asian thats OBVIOUSLY very good at math