Do any Online Pro's NOT use PT?

[mattw]

Most players, especially pro's, semi pro's, etc., recognize the value of PT. Even casual players use it extensively. For long time players, does the info contained in PT become intuitive? One knows how many flops are seen, preflop aggression, etc.

Can one argue for not using it? Other than for analizing one's own play(simple paper bookkeeping will get the same results), does the info on opponents justify the use of it? Granted PT and add-ons helps to identify oppenent's tendencies but relying on the info could be misleading. Perhaps a husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfreind, college room mates use the same account and play differently. Perhaps the opponent is an alcoholic/stoner/crack head who plays differntly according to the stage of the binge he/she is in. I guess what I am suggesting is that careful observation of the opponent during this session is more important than any prior info that may or may not be related to past experience. Does note taking and tagging of the opponent result in the same info that PT would provide but with a more realistic veiw?

If poker is a people game, does relying on a stat program diminsh the EV because someone is playing 12 tables using PT to make decisions for them instead of playing 4-8 tables and using current observations to make decisions?

Please discuss.

[Baulucky]

I use it, but I think it's overrated. Really useful to replay one's mistakes.

[Nick-Zack]

Could I make more money per table by only playing 2 and keeping better track of the action and each player - YES.

Will I make much money at the end of year by playing 8 tables and using PT/GT+ - YES.

[Emperor]

I use it. I love it. I LOVE the new version of PV. I'd love PT even more if I wasn't missing so many freaking hands I don't know about. It can't be used for bookeeping/accounting purposes IMO.

Supposedly EL DIABLO doesn't use it. He only uses Boggle solver bots.

[TStoneMBD]

i know of a couple selfproclaimed online pros that do not use pt. they are either too lazy or dont realize the power of it.

one guy i was talking to at turningstone made 130k last year (i believe him btw). he knew very little about pt. i told him all about it and he might jump on the wagon. he plays heads up mainly, so pt really isnt all that valuable for that.

[MyMindIsGoing]

"I'd love PT even more if I wasn't missing so many freaking hands I don't know about. It can't be used for bookeeping/accounting purposes IMO."

Then your logs are not 100%. I keep stats in Excel as well in PT, and PT is accurate on the cent. No problems at all.

[Emperor]

Wow accurate to the cent...

Yes my logs suck. I am on dial-up and am disconnecting at least once an hour. Before the 2.05.09 version I had hundreds of hand histories that weren't being marked as errored but were reading in as 2 combined histories. In other words if you searched on rake for each hand I had hundreds of hands in the negatives or over $3... I couldn't request all of these hands because Party has stopped keeping HH's before a certain date. (probably to thwart Poker Prophecy software)

I noticed after this patch that HH's with an "=" in the chat between a hand will cause the HH's to combine and not error out. Only happens once in a blue moon.

Yes my logs suck, but I am missing hands that I don't know that I am missing. I was off at least $300 from my excel sheet in the month of April.

Any suggestions?

[Dr_Freeze]

Yesterday I happened to notice that the Party auto-importer missed a hand I had played... forced import, still didn't catch it. Then I used the "old" manual import window, directed it to the party hand history folder, and imported that way. It caught the missing hand.

Moral... if you have the auto-importer set to save the HH files to a different folder when the window is closed (which I recommend), then once in a while you might want to run a manual import on the same files. For me, I just use excel after every session... any discrepancies, and I re-import the hands manually.

-Freeze

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
He only uses Boggle solver bots.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. WTF is a "boggle solver bot"?.

[Emperor]

He made a prop bet with another 2+2er, on who could solve online boggle puzzles faster. $100/puzzle. He used a puzzle solver software to cheat. You can search on it. Its quite sad.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He only uses Boggle solver bots.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. WTF is a "boggle solver bot"?.

[/ QUOTE ]

He plays lots of on-line boggle, and uses a bot to solve for him. Me, I prefer chutes & ladders as it is totally bot free and skill is what will win championships.

[sumdumguy]

Yes. There are plenty who can't be bothered.

[Rudbaeck]

It's alot less useful for NL&PL. I know of atleast one online pro who hates Texas Hold'em and plays almost exclusively Stud.

[Robk]

i havent used gt in a few months. for ring games i have notes, when i play shorthanded games i can mostly keep track of everything.

[sumdumguy]

Could you elaborate? I would've thought (though I don't play holdem) PT would be more useful in NL/PL.

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
He plays lots of on-line boggle, and uses a bot to solve for him. Me, I prefer chutes & ladders as it is totally bot free and skill is what will win championships.

[/ QUOTE ]

URL? I can't find any online C & L tourneys. I have to stick to Candy Land.

[Freakin]

[ QUOTE ]
He made a prop bet with another 2+2er, on who could solve online boggle puzzles faster. $100/puzzle. He used a puzzle solver software to cheat. You can search on it. Its quite sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it was sad or cheating, necessarily. The terms of the bet, as he claimed it, were "Whoever can get the most points in Weboggle"... He was making a point about the ins and outs of prop bets. GoT realized somethign was up after the first game, continued to play the next 4, and would have have been pissed/lost respect for ElD if he demanded payment.

Search for "Word on the street" if you want to read a 600 post thread on the subject, with one single-word thread-stealing post by Homer.

Freakin

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you elaborate? I would've thought (though I don't play holdem) PT would be more useful in NL/PL.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are so many ways of playing winning NL poker, and the statistics don't mean all that much. It gets even worse as for example the aggression factor gets skewed. People always bet $1 into a $40 pot, and lots of these gets called.

In limit all winning players play a very similar game.

[AncientPC]

PT is always useful, if at the very least analyzing play, keeping track of sessions played, time spent, money won, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
Could you elaborate? I would've thought (though I don't play holdem) PT would be more useful in NL/PL.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that extent, PT is useful for up to a certain degree. In limit, VP$IP and aggression are very useful numbers to quickly give an idea what a player's playing style.

However in NL, there is no such thing in PT like a "post-flop VP$IP" or "average post-flop bet size" to help you gauge what your opponent's playing style is. A player can min-bet and min-raise all day and have the same stats as a true maniac who pots or reraises with any two.

Also, NL (especially with deep stacks) is a lot about implied odds. People will cold call raises with a wider range of hands, hence raising their VP$IP. Bluffing is inherently more common, but how can you tell how often they bluff if you can't see their hands?

I know fimbulwinter has crazy stats like 45/15/4 and is a highly profitable player. I've occassion gone on sprints of 45/25/5 and ended up well in the black. PT stats isn't everything in NL.

[MrBlueNose]

It's helpful and a good asset at some sites(Party skins), and VERY helpful and a fantastic asset at others, like Interpoker. Actually I'd say it's invaluable if you're playing Texas Hold'Em there.