Flopped 1.5th Pair HU

[gaming_mouse]

Unknown villain.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>

What's my plan?

[brazilio]

I cap the flop, take my free turn and see a cheap(er) river. A turn 7 and river T are optional but recommended.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I cap the flop, take my free turn and see a cheap(er) river. A turn 7 and river T are optional but recommended.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you fold to his river bet?

also, why do you prefer this to betting the turn and taking a free showdown? no fold equity versus a flop 3bet?

[brazilio]

I can't think of a particular difference between betting the turn and checking through the river other than possible fold potential from a mid pair you're already beating, and in that case you want him in there anyway putting in a BB on the river he wouldn't have on the turn. I'm not thinking about folding this hand, I think you've got a mid pair beat way more than enough to call down.

[private joker]

I'd fold right away on the flop. Getting only 10:1, and you're clearly behind with a virtually unimprovable hand.

An alternative line is to just call the flop, call the turn, and call the river or bet if checked to.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold right away on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really can't see this being right.

[brazilio]

what

[New001]

What's wrong with calling the 3-bet and folding the turn UI? You have an underpair and a backdoor straight, and it's not like this is a blind steal. You raised UTG.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with calling the 3-bet and folding the turn UI?

[/ QUOTE ]

By this reasoning, you should fold to a 3bet. And I think this is an option, yes.

[brazilio]

I've gotten into a funk of aggressively playing the flop when the call call call line might prove more profitable and less risky, as mid pair is going to drop out once he bets and I raise. This might be a good situation for it, as this board doesn't look particulary drawey for a semi-coldcall from the SB.

[wrto4556]

I didn't do the math, but it seem like you can call the flop 3-bet and look for a T, 9, Q, or 7 turn...if not, muck.

You're getting 12-1 on the flop call (after the 3-bet) and will be getting 7-1 on the turn. With a turned T you have 8 new outs + the 2 nines, and any other you get 4 new outs + your nines. It's probably a loose call, but the implied odds would make up for it, imo.

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
By this reasoning, you should fold to a 3bet. And I think this is an option, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like your chances in this hand either way, but I would hate to cap this flop for a free card when you'll most likely be drawing to 2 outs after the turn if your backdoor doesn't come in.

[ThePenguin]

I would call down after getting three-bet on the flop, even though as I type this it sounds pretty weak. Against an unknown villain, I would like to see a showdown, although I expect to be behind. Think of it as buying a read.

[wrto4556]

There has to be an UI fold in here somewhere...99 isn't looking so hot.

I vote turn. On the flop hero has abou 3 outs...need 14-1. I bet we could get in 2 bets on the river.

EDIT: we are only getting 10-1 on the flop. I doubt we can get in 3 bets when we hit. It's really close between calling the flop and folding the turn UI and just folding the flop to the 3-bet. If he is aggressive and you think you can get 3+ bets in when you hit, I think the fold becomes a call.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
There has to be an UI fold in here somewhere...99 isn't looking so hot.

I vote turn. On the flop hero has abou 3 outs...need 14-1. I bet we could get in 2 bets on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the b/d str8, I need to hit 8 outs and then 4 outs, or 4 outs and then 8 outs: (4/47)*(8/46) + (8/47)*(4/46) ~ .03, or .75 outs. So I actually have 2.75 outs.

[brazilio]

no, you need 8 and then 8, either a T or a 7 gives you an OESD.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I cap the flop, take my free turn and see a cheap(er) river. A turn 7 and river T are optional but recommended.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're going to do this you're better off betting the turn and checking the river

[sthief09]

I generally call the flop, raise the turn, and take my free showdown. I don't see how raising the flop really gets you anywhere. At this point though I'd just call down. there's enough draw on the board and enough idiots on party that he doesn't need to beat a pair of nines

I can't believe everyone wants to fold somewhere. folding here makes Josh cry

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Unknown villain.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>

What's my plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

When it's back to you, you're getting 10:1. If he's got a jack, you're dead. If you call hoping to pick up a draw, you'll only be getting 6:1 to draw to it. I think you fold.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally call the flop, raise the turn, and take my free showdown. I don't see how raising the flop really gets you anywhere. At this point though I'd just call down. there's enough draw on the board and enough idiots on party that he doesn't need to beat a pair of nines

I can't believe everyone wants to fold somewhere. folding here makes Josh cry

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is so small, and SB clearly likes his hand. If I KNEW I'd spike a 7 or a 9 on the turn, I'd call.

[ErrantNight]

i like josh's plan. (call the first flop bet, raise the turn, free showdown unimproved).

you can't, no matter what, fold to this 3-bet. so the question becomes doth thou fold the turn unimproved? i'd say it depends on the card, but i don't hate folding the turn as much as josh.

that said, once you call the turn, you sure as [censored] better be calling the river unimproved, too.

[ErrantNight]

weak/tight phase, much?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

you can't, no matter what, fold to this 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not??? Even if you turn a gutshot, you won't have odds to draw at it.

[ErrantNight]

because even donks notice when you raise and fold on the flop. this is a standard issue loose call, even if there wasn't a legitimate possibility that you're ahead.

chance that you're ahead + desire to not fold after raising to a 3-bet in a headsup pot = easy call.

[ErrantNight]

that isn't true at all. revisit SSH. review the section on "loose calls."

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

that said, once you call the turn, you sure as [censored] better be calling the river unimproved, too.

[/ QUOTE ]


that's not necessarily true. there are some players who will bet the turn with an 8 or a draw but never the river. against stable people, I'll occasionally call a turn and fold the river, mainly because most stable people don't bluff the river as much as they should (myself included)

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

you can't, no matter what, fold to this 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not??? Even if you turn a gutshot, you won't have odds to draw at it.

[/ QUOTE ]


you don't need odds when you have the best hand

[ErrantNight]

i agree. the precise cards that fell might influence my decision, too. i was making my argument based on the unspoken supposition that (a) these were true blanks on the turn and river, and (b) that this was only true against this unknown opponent here.

i definitely don't mean to imply that a turn call should necessarily always precipitate a river call.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
because even donks notice when you raise and fold on the flop. this is a standard issue loose call, even if there wasn't a legitimate possibility that you're ahead.

chance that you're ahead + desire to not fold after raising to a 3-bet in a headsup pot = easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, this call is for image more than anything else?

[BottlesOf]

No, you could pick up an OESD or one of the obvious 2 outers for a set.

[ErrantNight]

not more than anything else, but it's part of it.

if your raising this flop on anything other than a total bluff, i'm pretty much auto-calling a 3-bet unless there is a very, very specific reason to play otherwise.

[BottlesOf]

What about calling the flop?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
not more than anything else, but it's part of it.

if your raising this flop on anything other than a total bluff, i'm pretty much auto-calling a 3-bet unless there is a very, very specific reason to play otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem that I have with just calling is that it shows weakness, and I KNOW he's gonna fire again on the turn. If I cap, will he check to me and let me take a free one it I wish? Is it worth it?

[ErrantNight]

i think it's pretty close. if i knew i'd get a free turn card with a flop cap i think the answer is pretty clear. i don't, though.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
What about calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

and then popping the turn? Me like much more. Josh is God.

[ErrantNight]

since we all agree on this line, i'm not even sure how we got a discussion started out of this...

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
since we all agree on this line, i'm not even sure how we got a discussion started out of this...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it came from the fact that the prick in the SB 3-bet the flop, which put Hero in an awkward spot.

[ErrantNight]

bastard. hero should use his telepathic powers to prevent this, next time.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
bastard. hero should use his telepathic powers to prevent this, next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally call the flop, raise the turn, and take my free showdown. I don't see how raising the flop really gets you anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
no, you need 8 and then 8, either a T or a 7 gives you an OESD.

[/ QUOTE ]

You... are correct, sir. I missed that two different outs both gave me an OESD.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold right away on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really can't see this being right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't clear. I fold right away on the flop after he 3-bets, meaning I don't even see the turn card in order to fold it UI. I do not fold for the one bet. If I raise, I fold to the flop 3-bet. Alternatively, I call-call-call.