A situation I struggle with

[beta1607]

Standard Party 5/10 table
You are first to act after the bring in with (7J)J and there is a K and Q to act after you. All Cards are live.

Call, complete, or fold? How much does this change if you have (TJ)J or a live two flush? If your hand is hidden?

[Roland]

7CSFAP recommends folding here, and that’s what I do about 80% of the time.
And I don’t think a two flush helps you that much, except if the game is somewhat loose-passive.

But there are lots of situations where I’d call/complete: if my opponents cards are dead, with a straight flush kicker, an ace kicker etc. Or maybe if it was you who held one of the higher up- cards, because you wouldn’t get tricky with me, would you?! But wait…maybe now you will? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
7CSFAP recommends folding here, and that’s what I do about 80% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, Chip Reese in his Seven Card Stud section in Supersystem thinks you can play even if there are two higher upcards behind you.

[Michael Emery]

This questuion has been brought up several times through the years. In this tight ante structure the best play is usually just to fold. In my opinion the next best play would be raising here. It costs you $2 to limp in this game and $5 to complete. Throwing in the extra $3 not only gives you an opportunity to steal the antes, but it also defines your hand better. If the king or Queen raises to $10 you can simply fold knowing your beat the majority of the time.

Mike Emery

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Throwing in the extra $3 not only gives you an opportunity to steal the antes, but it also defines your hand better. If the king or Queen raises to $10 you can simply fold knowing your beat the majority of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that many players will just call you with a higher up-card, and then you know nothing. Some fish might be calling you with 9h10dQs or similar crap; he might also be calling with split Qs though. Then what do you do? Give him a bunch of free cards? Bet all the way, only to discover he had the queens after all? I’ve been there, and I didn’t like it.
On the other hand, if somebody limps in with a ten up and the players with the higher up-cards are solid players that will either raise or fold, it might be worth it; especially if the limper will call to the river with tens for some reason.

[vulturesrow]

I dont know the structure at the 5/10 tables but I know down in my fish pond (1/2) if my cards are live I am limping this every time. There are two reasons for this

1) high ante structure
2) bad players

I know your question was specifically about the 5/10 game but for the newbie/lurkers in the forum, I wanted to highlight some of the things you need to think about when making decisions like this. Its one of the things I love about Stud, is that the right decision can be different every time.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Throwing in the extra $3 not only gives you an opportunity to steal the antes, but it also defines your hand better. If the king or Queen raises to $10 you can simply fold knowing your beat the majority of the time.



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The problem with this is that many players will just call you with a higher up-card, and then you know nothing. Some fish might be calling you with 9h10dQs or similar crap; he might also be calling with split Qs though. Then what do you do? Give him a bunch of free cards? Bet all the way, only to discover he had the queens after all? I’ve been there, and I didn’t like it.
On the other hand, if somebody limps in with a ten up and the players with the higher up-cards are solid players that will either raise or fold, it might be worth it; especially if the limper will call to the river with tens for some reason.


[/ QUOTE ]

No one likes being behind, but its a gambling game where your going to have to take a risk or two. Also you just cut out a quote from me about completing in this instance. If you reread my post you will see I advocated folding, then completing, and then calling. And for this specific structure that beta plays (5-10 on party) that is the correct advice. In other games and ante structures it can vary. Also, most all good and bad players are making it $10 with split queens in party's 5-10 game. If I were to complete in this 5-10 game and were just called by the Queen behind me, I would usually reason it was a 3-flush or some crap like 9 T Q like you said. I would then bet or check fourth and fifth streets accordingly based on what my opponent caught.

Mike Emery

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were to complete in this 5-10 game and were just called by the Queen behind me, I would usually reason it was a 3-flush or some crap like 9 T Q like you said.
Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this.. Mike, I've played a lot of hands where I end up betting someones hand for them on 3rd and 4th, only to get popped on 5th. A lot of players aren't raising to get it heads up "like they should".. quite frankly, I'm not so sure its a terrible decision.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
No one likes being behind, but its a gambling game where your going to have to take a risk or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. It’s only that I don’t seem to handle that specific situation well, so I choose to avoid it.
As for quoting you out of context: I am aware that you advocated folding. And I also agree that if you want to play, you’ve got to raise. I was only saying that I tend to end up in that aforementioned situation, that I don’t handle well.
The reason for this is that your statement

[ QUOTE ]
most all good and bad players are making it $10 with split queens in party's 5-10 game

[/ QUOTE ]

is not completely correct. I have only been playing at Empire for two weeks, but from what I’ve seen, and from my experience at Paradise, I’d say that maybe 10-15% of the players don’t re-raise (I’m only guessing, of course). As BeerMoney said, you end up betting there hand.

[RandomUser]

I agree that there are a lot of sneaky folk out there (myself included) who will simply call with their higher pair and wait till 5th street to checkraise you once you've commited a lot more money to the pot.

One trick to avoid this is to go ahead and bet 4th street, but check 5th street behind if you are unimproved to avoid the checkraise.

The counter to this for the higher pair is to do your checkraise on 4th and bet out on 5th.

The reason I do this is that I will often do the same thing with 9TQs as I do with 9QQ. If I do this, my opponent is put in a real bind, not knowing if I am checkraising him with Qs or Qs up or on a straight/flush hand that is busted.

If you do this as a semibluff and your opponent folds, feel free to show him what you had to raise his tilt level. (One of my favorite hands doing this I had pocket 2s with an A up and checkraise unimproved on 5th street and the guy tossed Ks up. He went ballistic when I showed him my hand)

Most people will fold their unimproved Js on 5th to a checkraise in this instance. So if they call me I know they have Js up or similar and I can slow down.

[Andy B]

I complete most of the time. I'm not saying it's right; it's just what I do.