AK preflop debate [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

drudman

04-25-2005, 02:53 AM

Daryn and I are arguing about this hand.

One of us thinks you should threebet preflop for value.

The other thinks you should just call in order to not inflate the pot and give the field the chance to correctly call bets on the flop.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP folds, CO calls.

Turn: (10.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, CO calls.

River: (12.20 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 14.20 BB

PoBoy321

04-25-2005, 02:56 AM

I think the play can go either way, personally, I don't mind not 3-betting here since I hate playing AK OOP against a large field of limpers, and any hand is getting a correct price getting something like 11:1 on the call if you raise.

daryn

04-25-2005, 03:00 AM

nevermind /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

MAxx

04-25-2005, 03:02 AM

3bet for value. i would cap for value.

PoBoy321

04-25-2005, 03:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
nevermind /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as a note, I'm usually a full-ring NL player, so I really don't deserve any respect.

kurosh

04-25-2005, 03:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The other thinks you should just call in order to not inflate the pot and give the field the chance to correctly call bets on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is daryn, you're a retard and should kill yourself.
If this is drudman, sorry, that's wrong logic.

daryn

04-25-2005, 03:09 AM

<blockquote>In risposta di:<hr />
<blockquote>In risposta di:<hr />
nevermind /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as a note, I'm usually a full-ring NL player, so I really don't deserve any respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

nah, i made a reply saying we were talking about preflop, then i realized you WERE talking about preflop.

sthief09

04-25-2005, 03:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the play can go either way, personally, I don't mind not 3-betting here since I hate playing AK OOP against a large field of limpers, and any hand is getting a correct price getting something like 11:1 on the call if you raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

1900 posts and you're considering not 3-betting AK, because of POT ODDS???? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Alobar

04-25-2005, 03:23 AM

This is an easy 3 bet. Not giving people pot odds? hell you could fold PF, and the pot would still be big enough that they have the odds to call with anything, so your raise doesnt suddenly change that issue.

sthief09

04-25-2005, 03:27 AM

your life will be easier and less painful if you listen to daryn

PassiveCaller

04-25-2005, 03:33 AM

This is an easy 3-bet for value given the typical 5-10 game on party. There's some situations where the players play extremely well post-flop where pot control could become more important but this is not even close to one of them.

These people will call if the pot is inflated or not and you're missing out on value by not 3-betting.

Jeff W

04-25-2005, 03:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One of us thinks you should threebet preflop for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Daryn is right.

imitation

04-25-2005, 03:37 AM

What they all said, make your money early.

PoBoy321

04-25-2005, 03:42 AM

I was basing it more on the fact that you're out of position against a large field of limpers than the pot odds. It was just that one of the OP's points was that after the flop, basically any hand would be getting terrific odds to call with whatever junk they had trying to spike 2 pair, gutshots straights, etc., which they would be correct to do getting 11:1 or whatever.

That said, see my other post about how I'm a full-ring NL player.

EDIT: I also didn't say that not 3-betting was correct, just that I could see some merit to it.

balkii

04-25-2005, 03:44 AM

did you consider coldcall on flop in order to checkraise a non-diamond turn? if i though CO would bet turn often enough i think this is superior line. although he could be raising for a free card. which would suck if you played it like that.

oh yeah easy 3-bet PF

sthief09

04-25-2005, 03:56 AM

by calling you give them infinite odds. by raising you give them good odds. which is better?

PoBoy321

04-25-2005, 04:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
by calling you give them infinite odds. by raising you give them good odds. which is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

This much I understand, but by building the pot OOP, it also makes it impossible for them to make a mistake, which is ultimately your goal, correct?

I'm not saying that my first response was right, it was just my immediate thought process and I'm more than happy to take criticism.

vinnox

04-25-2005, 04:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
by calling you give them infinite odds. by raising you give them good odds. which is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

This much I understand, but by building the pot OOP, it also makes it impossible for them to make a mistake, which is ultimately your goal, correct?

I'm not saying that my first response was right, it was just my immediate thought process and I'm more than happy to take criticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot's already been built, they'll be getting over 10:1 on a single flop bet. I'll echo everyone else and say raise for value.

stigmata

04-25-2005, 05:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
it also makes it impossible for them to make a mistake, which is ultimately your goal, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

It does make it harder for the opposition to make a mistake, but they have already made a bigger mistake of cold-calling with trash. You have a massive preflop equity which needs to be exploited. Raising might reduce your postflop equity by a tiny margin, but this is really not compensating anywhere near enough.

Surfbullet

04-25-2005, 01:08 PM

What everyone else said: 3-bet pf.

Surf

JrJordan

04-25-2005, 02:52 PM

4 opponents in the pot, this is a 3bet preflop and it's not even close.

Girchuck

04-25-2005, 03:50 PM

What the others said.
Also, you still need to punish UTG for raising, and you definitely need to punish the field for cold-calling. UTG raising with crap needs to be put in his place by your monster hand. Cold-calling two in three places also figures to be a gigantic error. It needs to be punished, and you've got the goods to do it. You want the cold-callers to be wary of you, because cold-callers often make you blind defence harder or impossible. Let them cold call you, not the other guys.
Also, if you want to re-raise AA and KK in this spot, you need to add at least AK, otherwise you might eventually get too much respect on your BB three-bets and caps (fortunately, thats not too likely)

mikeyKay

04-25-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The other thinks you should just call in order to not inflate the pot and give the field the chance to correctly call bets on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

who cares what odds your are giving the field? as long as you have an equity edge, i could care less if they "correctly call bets." a dumbed down example would be that you have a holding that figures to win 80% of the time, there are 20 bets in the pot, you must bet there. even though they have the odds to make the call, and arent "making a mistake" you are still making a killing on every bet that goes into the pot. controlling pot size is an over-rated concept...the game is hard enough as it is, dont waste your time trying to control pot size. think about equity and raise for value, like everyone else already said.

-mike

fnord_too

04-25-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3bet for value. i would cap for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's a post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=163650 7&Forum=f4&Words=AKo&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=16 36507&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=10605&dateran ge=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=#Post1636507) where Peter_rus mentions that in the 15/30 game, for him, capping AKo pf is not profitable. There's a lot of math/analysis in that thread (about a lot of things). (I guess that is redundant having said it is one of Peter_rus' threads.)

sammy_g

04-25-2005, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=163650 7&Forum=f4&Words=AKo&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=16 36507&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=10605&dateran ge=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=#Post1636507) where Peter_rus mentions that in the 15/30 game, for him, capping AKo pf is not profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is a great thread. It wouldn't surprise me, though, if capping AKo is unprofitable at a full table, but is profitable at a 6 max table.

MAxx

04-25-2005, 07:06 PM

thanks, i will check that link out. i do much prefer cappin AK in position than out of position, but that is kinda stateing the obvious.

i could see AK being more capworthy short handed, but that is without any analysis.

bobbyi

04-25-2005, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This much I understand, but by building the pot OOP, it also makes it impossible for them to make a mistake, which is ultimately your goal, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
Paying three bets to see the flop with whatever hands they have is almost certainly a mistake. You aren't making it "impossible" for them to make a mistake; you are guaranteeing that they have made one.