Post flop profit maximization. (Flush draw comes through)

[bunky9590]

Hey gang, all streets standard until the river who like this play. Anything anyone does different?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Bunky is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Bunky calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Bunky checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Bunky calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Bunky bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

River: (13 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Bunky checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Bunky raises</font>, UTG folds, MP folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB


Thoughts , comments?

[sthief09]

I would want especially bad players or an especially loose raiser to make the call preflop. I would definitely lead at the flop and call a raise. I like the turn bet. the river c/r is interesting. CO seems like the most likely candidate to have a Q. I'd hate to shut out the field by check-raising him.

[bunky9590]

Actually MP was a real Lag, I figured he'd bet the river. If the CO bet, I'd have to just call and go for the overcalls.

[twankerr]

I lead out the flop. Hard to say how action would have gone if you had lead the flop.

That said...I kinda sorta like the turn bet because of the line you had planned for the river, but I'm not sure you can plan on getting a C/R in on the river. The Q falling may have facilitated a C/R for you. Would you have lead out if a Q hadn't fallen?

Any read on if MP will stop and go? If so, I think the turn is an obvious C/R here. If not, I'm not so sure what to do on the turn. I'd probably C/R out of habit and lead the river. I know its transparent what you have, but I think it would be the most profitable line in the long run (again, assuming that the Q falling is the reason that MP bet the river).

edit: ignore, I didn't see your read in the other post. Well played if you can be that confident that MP will LAG it up and bet this river.

[sy_or_bust]

Standard? Why wouldn't you lead the flop, hoping to trap BB and UTG? You were lucky that MP/CO pumped the flop and UTG tagged along, but this will not happen very often, and allowing CO's protection raise (or raising yourself) is inferior to betting out when the raise folds UTG and BB, as it often will.

[TStoneMBD]

dont like the river checkraise. i think alot of players with decent pairs will be scared of someone having trip queens. also, you may very well find that the co has trip queens and will raise you.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I lead out the flop. Hard to say how action would have gone if you had lead the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody likes leading the flop here? Not me, 2 unders and a flush draw, gutshot straight flush draw but gutshot str8 to the idiot end, no thanks, check/call looks quite good there.

[ QUOTE ]
That said...I kinda sorta like the turn bet because of the line you had planned for the river,

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I didn't plan that for the river, I planned on betting the blank river. When the Queen popped up it was a real nice opportunity to get multple bets (and at least one from the LAG)

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn is an obvious C/R here

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, turn is an obvious bet into that big of a field. I want callers there, let them pay to draw to a heart or something else.

[Joe Tall]

I would definitely lead at the flop and call a raise

Why would you want MP to shut everyone out on your draw? Define a semibluff for me please, you are fogeting something. That flop texture begs a raise.

Bunk's line is perfect, river flawless.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard? Why wouldn't you lead the flop, hoping to trap BB and UTG? You were lucky that MP/CO pumped the flop and UTG tagged along, but this will not happen very often, and allowing CO's protection raise (or raising yourself) is inferior to betting out when the raise folds UTG and BB, as it often will.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you're joking

[helpmeout]

Bet the flop, look at your position compared to the preflop raiser.

I dont like the FPS on the river, board pairs and you are trying to drive everyone out with a checkraise? Just bet out and hope a Queen raises you so you can call.

[Victor]

i fold preflop but i never hit flushes.

i would usually bet the river here unless i was positive that someone would bet (obvioulsy). so if villain is aggressive and a fearless value better then this is a pretty good play.

[Joe Tall]

Bet the flop, look at your position compared to the preflop raiser

What?!?! Why? Want to shut others out? Don't like money? Like calling raises with only a draw? Forgot the definition of a semi-bluff?

Please, somebody give me a damn good reason.

Thanks,
Joe Tall

[arkady]

I like it G, i do. I dont like Josh's idea of leading the flop because a raise will isolate and be counter productive. For everyone suggesting to bet the flop into the raise, I will remind u that Bunky's hand has NO showdown value. None. The really interesting discussion is an overcall vs. a raise on the river.

Well the way I see it...you are guaranteed to get a call from a Q, CO most likely has it. So that is +1bb for sure.

UTG really looks like he is on a str8 draw and will not call 2 cold with anything worse, if he is on a busted draw he wont call even 1. He might pay off w/a J. So lets say he calls 1 bet 30% of the time, but 2 about 2% or in other words never.

MP, I have no idea what the hell he has. Or what that OOP river bet means, but I assume he is testing his J and will pay off to a raise a good portion of the time.

So if you raise, you will get an extra +2BB. If you call you will get an extra +1 bb 30% of the time.

Its a clear raise.

[helpmeout]

How will leading the flop isolate? You have 2 people to act after you before the preflop raiser bets.

The board is very drawy many people will hit that board and call 2 bets.

Being afraid of isolation is truely weak poker, 5/10 players arent folding hands like KJ KT AJ etc in this big pot.

You have a big draw in a big pot you want to bump it up.

[Joe Tall]

5/10 players arent folding hands like KJ KT AJ etc in this big pot.

They why fck bet? Afraid to give a free card? *cough* sarcasm *cough*

[arkady]

What guarantees do you have that they will even call Bunky's bet. Just because MP raised preflop does not mean he will be doing the isolating either. Someone right after Bunky can raise and get it HU. Awesome.

[helpmeout]

You have 2 people trapped between you and the PFR, your position is much better to bet and call a raise rather than checkraise.

You know people are going to call another bet when it comes back to them.

There is of course a chance for the PFR not to bet, it is 5 handed. If he has a hand like 88 99 TT AK he will more likely check it through.

[Joe Tall]

You have 2 people trapped between you and the PFR, your position is much better to bet and call a raise rather than checkraise.

Who fck is the moron who said check raise?

[arkady]

Why are you looking at it as something versus check-raising. What is wrong with calling. You have 30% equity against a viable range of hands given the preflop action and you need callers and your line might shut them out. Who said c/r?

[helpmeout]

Why would you only want people calling one bet when they will call 2?

Whats with the potty mouth as well...

[twankerr]

It's always possible that leading this flop will cause some sort of isolation to be made, but you can't really just check-call this flop. Given the position of the PFR, a C/R is obviously going to isolate more often than simply leading. There needs to be two bets paid by the donks that are calling with 74o. The only person showing aggression so far is MP, so you have to assume it will continue in the hand. If it gets isolated before MP, then that is poker and you ran into a decent enough hand. However, there is no guarentee that given the laggish qualities of MP he wouldn't at least come along for two cold with junk like ace high.

[ QUOTE ]
Nah, turn is an obvious bet into that big of a field. I want callers there, let them pay to draw to a heart or something else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Afer thought, I find it hard to believe I even told you to C/R the turn.

[arkady]

It is probably closer than we think. Only need half of those guys to call. Just stoved it against a likely mixture of hands.

Hand 1: 31.5279 % [ 00.32 00.00 ] { 9h8h }
Hand 2: 15.0169 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { JTs-J9s, T9s, KQo, JTo-J9o, T9o }
Hand 3: 07.0022 % [ 00.06 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 18.5439 % [ 00.18 00.00 ] { AKs, AKo }
Hand 5: 27.9091 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { KQs, QTs-Q6s, KQo, QTo-Q7o }

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I would definitely lead at the flop and call a raise

Why would you want MP to shut everyone out on your draw? Define a semibluff for me please, you are fogeting something. That flop texture begs a raise.

Bunk's line is perfect, river flawless.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]


MP is shutting out one person. there are two people in between. I like that a lot better than checking and calling given that he has the gut shot too

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually MP was a real Lag, I figured he'd bet the river. If the CO bet, I'd have to just call and go for the overcalls.

[/ QUOTE ]


ok well that answers preflop and the river for me

[twankerr]

Also, I think the river looks great the more I look at it. UTG probably had very little, so facing him with two cold will not harm you. MP folding makes me giggle. The only person you wanted to get another bet out of was CO, which you did. kudo.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you looking at it as something versus check-raising. What is wrong with calling. You have 30% equity against a viable range of hands given the preflop action and you need callers and your line might shut them out. Who said c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]


he has a gut shot as well as the flush draw

[twankerr]

[ QUOTE ]
he has a gut shot as well as the flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

His gutshot may be discounted a tad because someone with AK (and possibly K9) maybe in the hand, but yes you can increase your equity a tad.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
What guarantees do you have that they will even call Bunky's bet. Just because MP raised preflop does not mean he will be doing the isolating either. Someone right after Bunky can raise and get it HU. Awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]


the same thing could happen if you let the LAG bet the flop. CO could raise him. you miss out on a lot of value by checking

[arkady]

i am aware, it doesnt change things much. Maybe 2%.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
It is probably closer than we think. Only need half of those guys to call. Just stoved it against a likely mixture of hands.

Hand 1: 31.5279 % [ 00.32 00.00 ] { 9h8h }
Hand 2: 15.0169 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { JTs-J9s, T9s, KQo, JTo-J9o, T9o }
Hand 3: 07.0022 % [ 00.06 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 18.5439 % [ 00.18 00.00 ] { AKs, AKo }
Hand 5: 27.9091 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { KQs, QTs-Q6s, KQo, QTo-Q7o }

[/ QUOTE ]



likely mixture of hands? one guy always has AK? you realize AK kills 3 of his outs, plsu kills his all of his outs 1 in 16, right? he might as well have 65s because you're ignoring the fact that he has a gut shot

that's also way too tight IMO. you're skewing it toward the board without any flop information. I don't put any weightinto this numbers

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
i am aware, it doesnt change things much. Maybe 2%.

[/ QUOTE ]


you're only saying this because you're looking at your unbelievably biased poker stove results

he has a 3 outer. the preflop raiser is a LAG. no one else raised preflop. people usually raise AK. how often is someone going to have AK? certainly not over 1/2 of the time like you're suggesting, and certianly not every time like your sim indicates

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard? Why wouldn't you lead the flop, hoping to trap BB and UTG? You were lucky that MP/CO pumped the flop and UTG tagged along, but this will not happen very often, and allowing CO's protection raise (or raising yourself) is inferior to betting out when the raise folds UTG and BB, as it often will.

[/ QUOTE ]


protecting your 9 high is critical in big pots. straight out of HPFAP

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, look at your position compared to the preflop raiser.

I dont like the FPS on the river, board pairs and you are trying to drive everyone out with a checkraise? Just bet out and hope a Queen raises you so you can 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


I like that better

[arkady]

I am actually skewing it towards hero. Here, I will make it more objective. But in reality this is fake too, because with CO raising and others calling leads me to believe that some outs are counterfeited and more than 1 person might have a piece.


Board: Jh 2d Qh
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 38.5167 % [ 00.38 00.01 ] { 9h8h }
Hand 2: 12.8273 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 12.8461 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 22.8344 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { TT-88, AKs-ATs, A8s-A6s, KQs-K7s, QJs-Q7s, JTs-J8s, T9s-T8s, AKo-A6o, KQo-K9o, QJo-Q9o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o }
Hand 5: 12.9754 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random }

[sthief09]

so if you can get two people to pay an extra bet, that's 3/4 of a sb right into your pocket

a secondary benefit of betting (not necessarily against this guy since he's a LAG) is you might induce him into raising and taking a free card on the turn

[Joe Tall]

Did you also consider that they are morelikely to call when closing the action rather than call when bet into with the PFR behind them?

The best line is to check and call and 3-bet a c/r from your left.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you also consider that they are morelikely to call when closing the action rather than call when bet into with the PFR behind them?


[/ QUOTE ]



ok you have a good point. if the 2 to act after him are loose then I like betting better. betting and getting raised is free money. I don't think you give up much later on by playing it like that now

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
i think alot of players with decent pairs will be scared of someone having trip queens. also, you may very well find that the co has trip queens and will raise you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Co wouldn't raise me with trip Queens (probably 90% chance he calls and closes with me leading a bet when the flush card completes on the turn, but with the LAG acting before him and who Im certain will bet and have him call with the Q I can them trap them both for a double bet.

I was obviuosly betting the river on a blank.

[bunky9590]

I understand the whole equity thing, but A, isn't this an action flop if youve ever seen one? My bet can lead to an isoraise then Im staring at 9 high draw OOP, granted i have a bazzilion :1 odds to call but can I maximize $$ that way? Im never check raising that flop unless BB bets and they all call.

Nice to whack a hornets nest with a stick before you go to bed. Surprised at all the flop discussion cause Im still quite sure that is an easy check/call or check cold call situation.

Turn is just awesome.

I actually thought about the river once they all callled on the turn, MP was still in the hand, so thats what swayed the river bet into the river checkraise and Im quite sure the CO has a Q of some variety, and Im also quite sure MP would in fact bet.

Funny thing he folded. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[MAxx]

Bunky, I really like the River. It was a creative play.

IMO, leading the flop is best. There is only one player between you and and pfr that you could potentially be shutting out. You want the callers between you and pfr, and as you say this is a action flop... so I think you will get plenty of callers. You gotta like the flop, and with your equity being what it is and your good relative postion to pfr.... I don't understand not leading at the flop.

[chief444]

I have to chime in and say I really don't understand why you and Joe Tall seem so against a flop bet here. It's 5-handed and you've probably got like 35% equity or so here. I'm just not understanding even after reading through the thread.

I like the river since the Q paired.

[Trix]

AK wont be there every time..

[Trix]

Value ?

If you lead, BB or UTG will come along often, pfr will hardly ever fold and the guy who coldcalled him will often have hit a flop like this. So it will often be 4-way, and hardly ever less than 3-way.

[Guido]

So true Trix, I would bet this flop too especially at 5/10. People don't fold on the flop for 1SB. Joe might prefer check-calling but I would bet this one.

Thanks,

Guido

[BottlesOf]

Seems like an easy flop lead to me. Awesome river. I find pf a little suspect too...

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to chime in and say I really don't understand why you and Joe Tall seem so against a flop bet here. It's 5-handed and you've probably got like 35% equity or so here. I'm just not understanding even after reading through the thread.

I like the river since the Q paired.

[/ QUOTE ]



one point that JT made that I liked is that they might be more likely to call a bet closing the action than before the preflop raiser. even idiots will fear a raise behind them

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to chime in and say I really don't understand why you and Joe Tall seem so against a flop bet here. It's 5-handed and you've probably got like 35% equity or so here. I'm just not understanding even after reading through the thread.

I like the river since the Q paired.

[/ QUOTE ]



one point that JT made that I liked is that they might be more likely to call a bet closing the action than before the preflop raiser. even idiots will fear a raise behind them

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, I don't think idiots fear a raise behind. I'm in the lead the flop camp and I don't think it's close.

Krishan

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to chime in and say I really don't understand why you and Joe Tall seem so against a flop bet here. It's 5-handed and you've probably got like 35% equity or so here. I'm just not understanding even after reading through the thread.

I like the river since the Q paired.

[/ QUOTE ]



one point that JT made that I liked is that they might be more likely to call a bet closing the action than before the preflop raiser. even idiots will fear a raise behind them

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an interesting point but it still seems like such a clear flop lead with all this pot equity.

The river seems ridiculous to me though, check-raising where there possibly won't be a bet due to the scary board and then making two players face two cold after a bet as opposed to betting where a Q likely raises this river allowing you to 3-bet or go for overcalls, depending on the position of raisers and callers and netting at least one bet from weak hands which called the first bet but folded to the second but can easily to fold to a check-raise (if there's a bet in the first place). Yeah, it's "creative" but it's silly.

[twankerr]

[ QUOTE ]
The river seems ridiculous to me though, check-raising where there possibly won't be a bet due to the scary board

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that at some point players have to trust a read, like the Hero did. If you are confident a LAG will bet into the field like this on the river, you have to go for the C/R.

[MrWookie47]

Maybe this is one where I'll have to chalk it up to a difference in stakes. I was set on betting out for a while, but Joe Tall and a few others were so adament. I definitely see his point, though, about having more people willing to call one from the preflop raiser, but not one when he's still to act. I think it depends on how much credit you give your opponents. Where I'm playing, at 1/2 6max, I think betting out is clear, since my opponents are more likely to be a few donuts short of a dozen. If these guys have a clue, however, I definitely see the merits of checking.

[Joe Tall]

one point that JT made that I liked is that they might be more likely to call a bet closing the action than before the preflop raiser. even idiots will fear a raise behind them

You are also forgetting that a player like yourself is more likely to call closing the action when the pot odds are better.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I find pf a little suspect too...



[/ QUOTE ]

Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday. That was an easy, easy call PF. If you're folding that there, you are leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find pf a little suspect too...



[/ QUOTE ]

Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday. That was an easy, easy call PF. If you're folding that there, you are leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find pf a little suspect too...



[/ QUOTE ]

Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday. That was an easy, easy call PF. If you're folding that there, you are leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]



under a lot of situations, I feel strongly that this is wrong. since MP is a LAG I think it's as easy as you're making it out to be. against a table of unknowns, you'd have a hard time convincing me that calling is best

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find pf a little suspect too...



[/ QUOTE ]

Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday. That was an easy, easy call PF. If you're folding that there, you are leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]


standard with the 2/5 structure?? or given his read of MP as a LAG?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find pf a little suspect too...



[/ QUOTE ]

Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday. That was an easy, easy call PF. If you're folding that there, you are leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]


standard with the 2/5 structure?? or given his read of MP as a LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's likely going to be five ways to the flop - the 1/5th discount is enough. Folding costs him -0.1 BB and I don't see Bunky losing that much with this hand if he calls.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find pf a little suspect too...



[/ QUOTE ]

Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday. That was an easy, easy call PF. If you're folding that there, you are leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if this will stick a firecracker in this pot but the 2/3 blinds structure sure makes this decision close.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find pf a little suspect too...



[/ QUOTE ]

Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday. That was an easy, easy call PF. If you're folding that there, you are leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]


standard with the 2/5 structure?? or given his read of MP as a LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's likely going to be five ways to the flop - the 1/5th discount is enough. Folding costs him -0.1 BB and I don't see Bunky losing that much with this hand if he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]


-.1 comes from PR's numbers?

does this hold true in a more aggressive game?

[J.R.]

folding losses/costs .2 BBs, the value of the sb.

[chief444]

JT,

I definitely can't argue with your logic there. It just seems to me in a decent pot with a QJx flop they'll find a reason to continue pretty often. But obviously if you have like a 1-2% equity edge with just two opponents you're better off check/calling if it will get an extra opponent to put money in on the flop since it's unlikely to effect the outcome much. But there are a lot of scenarios to how this plays out and to me it just seems betting out and possibly 3-betting gets you the most value. Point taken though.

Chief

[Joe Tall]

It's an interesting point but it still seems like such a clear flop lead with all this pot equity.

Some PLEASE explain to me how we might be losing equity if check and call? I assume that's what you are afraid of if you have to bet?

You'll get a larger pot by checking and calling, more often, as the players between you are more likely to call for a number of reasons:

1. They are closing the action.
2. The pot is larger.
3. They are not being sandwiched between you and the PFR.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find pf a little suspect too...



[/ QUOTE ]

Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday. That was an easy, easy call PF. If you're folding that there, you are leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]


standard with the 2/5 structure?? or given his read of MP as a LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's likely going to be five ways to the flop - the 1/5th discount is enough. Folding costs him -0.1 BB and I don't see Bunky losing that much with this hand if he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]


-.1 comes from PR's numbers?

does this hold true in a more aggressive game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, the -.1 number is wrong. He loses his $2 blind = .2 BB if he folds.

I don't care all that much how aggressive the game is, I think I can make money with it in a 5-handed pot.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care all that much how aggressive the game is, I think I can make money with it in a 5-handed pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding! Precisely why I called.

[rory]

I think that people are forgetting that the hero only has 9 high. In SSHE, Ed Miller suggests jacking up the flush draws if you get them, because if you knock people out it is good since it adds to your equity, but that is only if you have other ways to win such as an overcard or something. If you have 9 high on this sort of board you have to hit your flush to win. Why knock out customers?

Hero has a gutshot, but the only reason why he would want to knock people out would be if someone had AK. And the person who is likely to have AK is the preflop raiser, who isn't going to knock himself out by raising. So there is no point in betting out.

So there is no reason for hero to bet into the PFR and knock people out. Hero's best line is what he did, check and call to try to get the most people in on his draw, since he has to hit it to win. If hero had some other draws, or an overcard or something, then it might be right to bet into the PFR to try to knock everyone else out. But he doesn't.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll get a larger pot by checking and calling, more often, as the players between you are more likely to call for a number of reasons:


[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely my reason for check calling, but there are two other reasons why.

1. This draw isn't all that people, its 2 way but neither way is to the nuts. I have 9 HIGH! Granted its a nine high flush draw, and an idiot end of a gutshot straight. Yeah time to go apeshit with that hand.

2. I get some information about where everyone is at if I do check and I get to see what happens if someone else leads into him, will the CO raise the LAG&lt; I mean, I can use my lack of postion to gain some info here for free before decideing on the best course of action.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll get a larger pot by checking and calling, more often, as the players between you are more likely to call for a number of reasons:

1. They are closing the action.
2. The pot is larger.
3. They are not being sandwiched between you and the PFR.


[/ QUOTE ]

Its not so much that they are more likely to call when you check (which is pretty undisputed) but whether they are materially less likely to call if you bet, which is harder to quantify, although we do know utg limped preflop, so he has that going for him, which is nice for us (and implicit in a utg limp is that he is loose and/or not too worried about raises behind hem, at least preflop).

BB is trickier to predict, but its not so much whether he calls but more that he doesn't raise when considering a lead.

CO coldcalled preflop, so maybe that makes it more likely he calls 2 on the flop, but maybe that is a stretch.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that people are forgetting that the hero only has 9 high. In SSHE, Ed Miller suggests jacking up the flush draws if you get them, because if you knock people out it is good since it adds to your equity, but that is only if you have other ways to win such as an overcard or something. If you have 9 high on this sort of board you have to hit your flush to win. Why knock out customers?

Hero has a gutshot, but the only reason why he would want to knock people out would be if someone had AK. And the person who is likely to have AK is the preflop raiser, who isn't going to knock himself out by raising. So there is no point in betting out.

So there is no reason for hero to bet into the PFR and knock people out. Hero's best line is what he did, check and call to try to get the most people in on his draw, since he has to hit it to win. If hero had some other draws, or an overcard or something, then it might be right to bet into the PFR to try to knock everyone else out. But he doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post of the day here , nice work rory.

I had a broief discussion with ScFuji and he asked if I called with AKh (which I told him was impossible) but if I did would I lead out the flop, the answer there was indeed I would I now have 2 overcards and both NUT DRAWS. much different scenario.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
It's an interesting point but it still seems like such a clear flop lead with all this pot equity.

Some PLEASE explain to me how we might be losing equity if check and call? I assume that's what you are afraid of if you have to bet?

You'll get a larger pot by checking and calling, more often, as the players between you are more likely to call for a number of reasons:

1. They are closing the action.
2. The pot is larger.
3. They are not being sandwiched between you and the PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think on avg at the party 5-10 short, leading here gets the most money in the pot. It seems to me that betting into pfr with this relative position accomplishes this.

IMO the avg. 5-10 opposition are not as concerned about the possibility of getting trapped, as they are focused on continueing to chase gutshots and 5 outers even if the odds arent quite there.

With the check-call approach, 3 of the 5 players were actually faced coldcalling 2 flop bets. We only lost one player on this flop sequence. I'm just pointing out that I don't think they will be fazed by calling a trapping type bet and much less so than calling multiple bets cold... which they do not fear as much as they should. IMO we will get more money in the pot when we bet into pfr. We may have been lucky that we got a bet and a raise in this sequence. I think you need to use your position to trap and spark the PFR in to being your b!tch by enticing his raising of flop.
Who knows we could have gotten several more bets in here on the flop.

If we were sitting around the table full of Joe Tall's, Sthiefs, JJB, etc.... they would indeed be a little more weary of being trapped, but that is not really our opposition...

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Its no so much that they are more likely to call when you check (which is pretty undisputed) but whether they are materially less likely to call if you bet, which is harder to quantify

[/ QUOTE ]

JR,

As usual, you are spot on; I mentioned this earlier in one of my dozen responses among my f-bombs, when responders are adding such beautiful reasons like:

I bet.... not close

Which is fcking lame in my book.

And I begged them to tell me why, no one really added anything, and sthief, seemed to come around (not sure where he still stands (that wishy-washy foo)) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

For all of you out there, I curse and swear and all that, it's my nature, so fck off if you don't like it. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[rory]

They aren't really swears. More like punctuation.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
They aren't really swears. More like punctuation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] you.

[rory]

You're welcome.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
2. I get some information about where everyone is at if I do check and I get to see what happens if someone else leads into him, will the CO raise the LAG&lt; I mean, I can use my lack of postion to gain some info here for free before decideing on the best course of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have wonderful position to lead a flush draw into an lp pfr. /images/graemlins/grin.gif just playin man.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They aren't really swears. More like punctuation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone teach everyone how to get around the profanity filters.

Krishan

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
you have wonderful position to lead a flush draw into an lp pfr

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I'll be next in line behind "He called with Jack high!"

to "He bet into a 5 person field in a raised pot with the PFR to act with 9 HIGH!" on a board thats begging to get raised anyway.

Niiiiiiice

[BottlesOf]

I just said suspect, not incorrect. If everyone says easy call, then easy call. I don't think I was pyaing enough attention to how multiway the pot really was.

[ QUOTE ]
Keep waiting for aces, you'll get them someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what's your VPIP in this gmae?

[Guido]

Joe,

I would bet this because at 5/10 you will get the most money in the pot with the most players. You want to face them with as many single SB calls as possible. They don't care about raises behind them in general. Also a 10SB pot is big no matter what and I think they won't call more or less often facing a 10SB pot or a 14SB pot. They will call anyway.

Against good and thinking opponents I would check-call, at 5/10 I bet out.

Mucho Peace for you,

Guido

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what's your VPIP in this gmae?

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP 25.97

PFR 17.22

fold BB to Steal 39.65.

Ive turned into schneids. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what's your VPIP in this gmae?

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP 25.97

PFR 17.22

fold BB to Steal 39.65.

Ive turned into schneids. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In games that are 4-6 handed, I'm VPIP 29, PFR 20. Yeah, dawg!

[BottlesOf]

Ok, I'm a nit....


That Fold BB to steal can't be optimal, can it????

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you have wonderful position to lead a flush draw into an lp pfr

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I'll be next in line behind "He called with Jack high!"

to "He bet into a 5 person field in a raised pot with the PFR to act with 9 HIGH!" on a board thats begging to get raised anyway.

Niiiiiiice

[/ QUOTE ]

while amusing- i dont't see how any of that is really relevant. to me the issue is simple- we have on average a clear equity edge and therefore we need to determine the best line for getting the most people putting the most bets in on the flop. Relatively speaking, you are taking the biggest share of every flop bet that goes in.

It's purely a question of how to get there, which does not appear to be in agreement.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what's your VPIP in this gmae?

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP 25.97

PFR 17.22

fold BB to Steal 39.65.

Ive turned into schneids. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm 24/19, but my folded BB to steal is 60. I really need that down so I can be cool

[sthief09]

I've decided that it probably doesn't matter too much either way. I do think, in general, pumping without discretion is a lot worse than never pumping at all, so erring on the side of what's usually correct wouldn't be so bad

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what's your VPIP in this gmae?

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP 25.97

PFR 17.22

fold BB to Steal 39.65.

Ive turned into schneids. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm 24/19, but my folded BB to steal is 60. I really need that down so I can be cool

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'd reverse the problem and ask why a fold to steal of 60% is a priori correct.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think, in general, pumping without discretion is a lot worse than never pumping at all

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I've decided that it probably doesn't matter too much either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's that sound? I think my laundry is done. Gotta go boys, enjoy. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what's your VPIP in this gmae?

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP 25.97

PFR 17.22

fold BB to Steal 39.65.

Ive turned into schneids. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm 24/19, but my folded BB to steal is 60. I really need that down so I can be cool

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'd reverse the problem and ask why a fold to steal of 60% is a priori correct.

[/ QUOTE ]


please explain in non-fancy terms. I am a yes-man and don't do the whole reading/understanding english thing. are you saying 60 is fine?

[BottlesOf]

I think mine is like 60.0 I also think Nate's got jokes.

[spydog]

Leading the flop has a benefit that nobody mentions. It diguises your hand so that you may pick up extra bets on the more expensive streets. It's for that reason that I lead the flop here.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what's your VPIP in this gmae?

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP 25.97

PFR 17.22

fold BB to Steal 39.65.

Ive turned into schneids. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm 24/19, but my folded BB to steal is 60. I really need that down so I can be cool

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'd reverse the problem and ask why a fold to steal of 60% is a priori correct.

[/ QUOTE ]


please explain in non-fancy terms. I am a yes-man and don't do the whole reading/understanding english thing. are you saying 60 is fine?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not actually trying to be funny here.

What I'm saying is that, since the average/implicit consensus of this forum seems to be to fold the BB to a steal about 60% of the time, people like Bunky who deviate substantially from that number are asked to provide justification. But the thing is, I've never really seen the least shred of proof that 60% FBB is in fact correct. So I don't think it's fair to suggest that the burden of proof is on Bunky.

[Schneids]

Haven't read any of the other responses yet...

Preflop is borderline but I can live with it as I certainly make this call on occasion. I think it's closer to a fold given the 5/10 blind structure though.

Flop I prefer betting out. If anyone raises and there's at least 1 caller I 3 bet the flop (**important note** if the flop then doesn't get capped that doesn't mean I have to bet a blank turn). If someone raises and I end up HU then I will just flat call since I doubt I have much fold equity and if you push the action now you won't be able to get much more action on the turn and river when you hit.

When you bet the turn I would have never tried to check raise the river. Good read if the guy is LAG enough to bet his trips despite the fact you've played it pretty much like a flush.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
When you bet the turn I would have never tried to check raise the river. Good read if the guy is LAG enough to bet his trips despite the fact you've played it pretty much like a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying to figure out why I didn't like check/raising the river, even though MP is supposed to be LAG. And this is why. Even a LAG is going to slow down sometimes, won't he?

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is that, since the average/implicit consensus of this forum seems to be to fold the BB to a steal about 60% of the time, people like Bunky who deviate substantially from that number are asked to provide justification. But the thing is, I've never really seen the least shred of proof that 60% FBB is in fact correct. So I don't think it's fair to suggest that the burden of proof is on Bunky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's all Im saying. I can handle the burden of proof. I take that 3:1 pot odds stuff to heart. And theres not many party 5-10 playes gonna outplay me postflop. I can get away with it a bit more.

[arkady]

Those are purdy stats, Nate.

What is your UTG/CO/Button VPIP/PFR. If u dont mind digging that stuff up.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your UTG/CO/Button VPIP/PFR. If u dont mind digging that stuff up.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG high, CO real effing high, button extremely effing high.

[BottlesOf]

I'm totally open to changing any aspect of my game. So do you just basically only fold the utter crap, when an MP/CO/Button open raises and it's HU?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Those are purdy stats, Nate.

What is your UTG/CO/Button VPIP/PFR. If u dont mind digging that stuff up.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG VPIP 19 PFR 19
HJ VPIP 20 PFR 19
CO VPIP 24 PFR 23
But VPIP 28 PFR 26
SB VPIP 41 PFR 21
BB VPIP 31 PFR 13

Couple things:

It looks like these hands are distributed almost equally between 4-, 5- and 6-handed.

Virtually all of these hands are from Party 15/30, hence I'll be playing my SB a lot here.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm totally open to changing any aspect of my game. So do you just basically only fold the utter crap, when an MP/CO/Button open raises and it's HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, only uteer crap. because i don't necessarily need a hand to take the pot away from him. Its usually checkraise the flop and lead the turn. Wins a lot of pots against the weakies. Let alone if I flop middle or bottom pair or god forbid a real hand.

though if Im way out on a limb I just give it up on the flop. After sitting at a table for a half hour, I get a lot of walks in the BB instead of steal raises.

[arkady]

Those are dizzying CO/Button numbers. I am assuming that you are 3-4 tabling, which makes those high VPIPs very impressive.

I know rory mentioned that his button VPIP is 30+, but 1 or 2 tabling that is understandable.

Anyway that is definitely one common pattern between solid players...really high pfr/vpip in CO/Button.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]


UTG VPIP 19 PFR 19
HJ VPIP 20 PFR 19
CO VPIP 24 PFR 23
But VPIP 28 PFR 26


[/ QUOTE ]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz

[bunky9590]

button 30/25
CO 27/ 23

[arkady]

lol! thats pretty damn good.

u still doing 2 5/10 and 2 10/20?

if so, are those mixed stats?

[bunky9590]

CO had Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MHIG.

I love how MP folded to the river raise.

[Schneids]

Ok, got to read through the entire thread.

Here's more in depth why I feel betting out is better than checking:

1) The pot is ALREADY big. The people between you and the PFR are not going to fold their hands just because they fear the PFR raising them. They have a piece, they're calling. They might even raise. Great, I hope they raise. I hope they raise and the PFR three bets. So I can cap.

2) 12 outs to your hand!! That's hitting your hand half the time!! Sure, you sometimes lose to AK when you make a straight or lose to a higher flush but man oh well, I'm an optimist and until someone's card flashes we've got twelve outs!

3) It disguises your hand better! It's much more likely that when you hit one of your outs on the turn or river you can get in more than one bet!

4) Say worst case happens and it ends up HU... Oh well. It was PROBABLY GOING TO ANYWAY whether you check/called, or whether you bet and some doofus raises your bet.

5) This is just my personal thing but I LOVE flopping big draws and I love pushing them to their death on the flop. 5/10 is a loose game and look at all these people who limped... They're not, not not not not not notnot going anywhere when you bet. PERFECT SITUATION.

6) More likely to get another 98 out of the pot... Say you bet, and an EP limper calls with 98. PFR raises, now you 3 bet. Whammo, I guarantee you 98 EP player is folding 98 now. Awesome!! If not, even more awesome cuz we're free rolling him!!


Sorry Joe, I read your reasons. Sorry Rory, I read your reasons. Sorry everyone else, I read your reasons, and you just cannot sell me on the fact that checking this flop is more +EV than betting.

[bunky9590]

those stats alll 5-10.

My new screenname has been good to me this week as well. 2550 hands of 5-10 7.36 BB/100

Last month 9k hands @ 4.96 BB/100

Running well and playing well is a really good combonation.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Those are dizzying CO/Button numbers. I am assuming that you are 3-4 tabling, which makes those high VPIPs very impressive.

I know rory mentioned that his button VPIP is 30+, but 1 or 2 tabling that is understandable.

Anyway that is definitely one common pattern between solid players...really high pfr/vpip in CO/Button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much always 4-table, but usually only one or at most two of the games is running shorthanded.

That said, as Schneids has (sarcastically) pointed out, I just don't think these numbers are all that high. A year ago, I was sort of deliberately playing a LAG style just for kicks but I really think I'm playing "correctly" now, and could probably even tack a couple more percentage points to my stats without getting myself into too much trouble.

One other thing worth mentioning (which should be evident from those stats) is that I virtually never overlimp in a shorthanded game.

[arkady]

lol. do you realize its almost the exact same situation?

you bet, call, call, raise, call. you call. (you are not 3-betting here). Then again if you are 3-betting, which I guess you might, there is a chance you might get the hands HU. Awesome! bleh

verus.

you check, check, check, bet, raise...all call. same result.

The only difference is that if you bet, they *MIGHT* fold due to whatever reason. So by not betting out you do have a weird situation where it might get raised right after/they might fold, etc. It is just a safer approach to ultimately achieve the same goal.

Disguising is also a non-issue, since everyone will be afraid of the flush and bunky will be forced to bet it on the turn, just like he did.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm totally open to changing any aspect of my game. So do you just basically only fold the utter crap, when an MP/CO/Button open raises and it's HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, only uteer crap. because i don't necessarily need a hand to take the pot away from him. Its usually checkraise the flop and lead the turn. Wins a lot of pots against the weakies. Let alone if I flop middle or bottom pair or god forbid a real hand.

though if Im way out on a limb I just give it up on the flop. After sitting at a table for a half hour, I get a lot of walks in the BB instead of steal raises.

[/ QUOTE ]


how often do you switch tables when you get busted trying check raising with air on the flop? if a table is mediocre I've started to unclick auto post blinds and leave. I'd imagine that should kill my table image

[arkady]

Schneids is not impressed, because he has the same numbers, but for most those are high. So zzzzzzz to him, interesting to others.

Strange that you never overlimp...real strange. Lets say UTG/MP calls...i will call w/22-66 in the HJ/CO. Along with other suited connectors 56s, etc. Unless I forgot what overlimping means.

[sthief09]

the difference is you're taking CO raising the flop as a given. more often than not he won't raise

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

you bet, call, call, raise, call. you call. (you are not 3-betting here). Then again if you are 3-betting, which I guess you might, there is a chance you might get the hands HU. Awesome! bleh

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I am hoping to 3-bet no matter who comes along unles the pot ends up HU by the time action returns to me.

[arkady]

But do you realize, that by 3-betting there is a very good chance you WILL make it HU.

Especially in that scenario where you are facing two people with 2 more.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
But do you realize, that by 3-betting there is a very good chance you WILL make it HU.

Especially in that scenario where you are facing two people with 2 more.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my thought as well. Maybe people won't fold for 2 more once they put 1 in? This is a bit counterintuitive for me also.

Krishan

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Strange that you never overlimp...real strange. Lets say UTG/MP calls...i will call w/22-66 in the HJ/CO. Along with other suited connectors 56s, etc. Unless I forgot what overlimping means.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do overlimp sometimes, it's just quite rare. The scenarios you've provided above are pretty much good working examples of the exceptions ... I want at least *two* limpers to me if I'm overlimping on the Button or especially the Cutoff (I'm *less* inclined to overlimp in the CO since it's nice to be able to steal the Button ... I have no problem whatsoever raising two limpers with 98s or 66 there).

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
But do you realize, that by 3-betting there is a very good chance you WILL make it HU.

Especially in that scenario where you are facing two people with 2 more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I acknowledge that's a risk but I know I've 3-bet draws just like this before and not lost the people who called the first bet, because the pot is so damn big already. Maybe I'm just running hot, but I honestly don't expect most of them to fold when I 3-bet.

However, risk acknowledged. Guess we'll agree to disagree on the likelihood of this risk being realized at the table /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[arkady]

Anyone with a J or wose is folding for 2 more. Even a weak Q might fold.

You are mixing up preflop with postflop. Preflop they will still call, because if they already put some money they will see the flop no matter what. You can cap it and threaten to kill their first born, they will see the flop.

But post flop, they are a bit wiser. (just a bit)

[arkady]

I can certainly agree to disagree. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

At the risk of creating a weak-tight image, I have to say I have 3 bet weaker draws before, but definitely with position. This entire thread is hinged on the fact that our hero in a pink dress is first to act.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
You are mixing up preflop with postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I most certainly am not. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif If you lead and 3-bet the preflop raiser, the field will face 2 when they have already put one in.

Krishan

[arkady]

I read your sentence incorrectly. You were actually agreeing w/me, not used to it in this thead. sorry bud /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Nikla]

IMO best -&gt; worst flop play:

1. Check-call
2. Bet-call
3. Bet-3bet
4. Check-raise

The main reason I prefer check-calling over bet-calling is that the flop-turn stop n go if you hit is very seethrough.

[Nikla]

Also, I think Schneids is on crack for wanting to 3-bet flop.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Those are purdy stats, Nate.

What is your UTG/CO/Button VPIP/PFR. If u dont mind digging that stuff up.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG VPIP 19 PFR 19
HJ VPIP 20 PFR 19
CO VPIP 24 PFR 23
But VPIP 28 PFR 26
SB VPIP 41 PFR 21
BB VPIP 31 PFR 13

Couple things:

It looks like these hands are distributed almost equally between 4-, 5- and 6-handed.

Virtually all of these hands are from Party 15/30, hence I'll be playing my SB a lot here.

[/ QUOTE ]



curious how you're so loose, I wrote down my own numbers and compared to yours. the first set of numbers is my numbers for April, second is numbers for this week where I've played considerably looser than usual. the third is Nate

UTG 14/14 16/16 19/19
HJ 19.4/19 26/25 20/19
CO 24/23 30/27 24/23
But 27/25 26/23 28/26
SB 27/19 30/19 41/21 (2/3 structure)
BB 26/13 22/10 31/13


it seems like the extra hands you play are all UTG and in the BB (and presumably in the SB, though it's impossible to tell from these numbers). how are you playing 19% of hands UTG?

AA
KK
QQ
JJ
TT
99
88
77
66
55
AK
AQ
AJ
AT
KQ
KJ
A9s
A8s
KTs
QJs
QTs
JTs
QJo
J9s
T9s
KTo
Q9s
K9s
A7s
A5s
JTo
QTo

represent 19% of hands. are you really raising all that? I'm sure the fact that you're playing short full games has a big effect too though.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO best -&gt; worst flop play:

1. Check-call
2. Bet-call
3. Bet-3bet
4. Check-raise

The main reason I prefer check-calling over bet-calling is that the flop-turn stop n go if you hit is very seethrough.

[/ QUOTE ]


somewhere in Minnesota, Schneids is now crying, for his man-crush has disagreed with him

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]

it seems like the extra hands you play are all UTG and in the BB (and presumably in the SB, though it's impossible to tell from these numbers). how are you playing 19% of hands UTG?

AA
KK
QQ
JJ
TT
99
88
77
66
55
AK
AQ
AJ
AT
KQ
KJ
A9s
A8s
KTs
QJs
QTs
JTs
QJo
J9s
T9s
KTo
Q9s
K9s
A7s
A5s
JTo
QTo

represent 19% of hands. are you really raising all that? I'm sure the fact that you're playing short full games has a big effect too though.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty close to my UTG range. The QTo, KTo type hands sometimes get chucked. On the other hand, I'll loosen up sometimes with suited connectors, etc.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
how often do you switch tables when you get busted trying check raising with air on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't leave, I stay right the heck there. I slow down on the air raising but I value bet their brains out and still checkraise with mediocre/good hands. Usually they just stop effing with me. They realize that its going to cost them and I can start to give a little more respect to their raises.

They don't scare me , and I don't go away.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
somewhere in Minnesota, Schneids is now crying, for his man-crush has disagreed with him

[/ QUOTE ]

Too effing funny. Schneids just thinks that 9 high is the nutter butter nuts.

Schneider and I definitely don't see eye to eye on this one.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think Schneids is on crack for wanting to 3-bet flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

ARTIST: Carol Hall
TITLE: It's All Right to Cry
Lyrics and Chords


[Free to Be You and Me]

[Performed by Rosey Grier]

It's all right to cry
Crying gets the sad out of you
It's all right to cry
It might make you feel better

/ C - Dm7 G7 / Dm7 G7 C - / - - Dm7 G7 / Dm7 G C - /

Raindrops from your eyes
Washing all the mad out of you
Raindrops from your eyes
It's gonna make you feel better

{Refrain}
It's all right to feel things
Though the feelings may be strange
Feelings are such real things
And they change and change and change

/ Am - Em - / F - C Em / Am - Em - / F - Gsus4 G /

Sad 'n' grumpy, down in the dumpy
Snuggly, hugly, mean 'n' ugly
Sloppy, slappy, hoppy, happy
Change and change and change

/ C - - - / G7 - - - / Em - Am7 - / F - C - /

{Refrain}

It's all right to know
Feelings come and feelings go
It's all right to cry
It might make you feel better

{Spoken}
It's all right to cry, little boy
I know some big boys that cry too

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
This entire thread is hinged on the fact that our hero in a pink dress is first to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

and has 9 high /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

On another note.
Apparently these donks had no clue, because if they had 2 brain cells to run together my cold call two OOP on the flop and lead the turn into 5 effing people should have sent off warning klaxons within a 20 miles radius.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
The main reason I prefer check-calling over bet-calling is that the flop-turn stop n go if you hit is very seethrough.

[/ QUOTE ]

More see-through than cold-calling 2 on the flop and then coming to life when a flush comes in? I am not real sure about that, maybe player dependant.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
and has 9 high


[/ QUOTE ]

Flush over Flush is fairly rare. And you werent worried about it when you c/r'd a paired board on the river. What makes it not pumpworthy on the flop then?

[J.R.]

a priori u don't know u will be calling two if you check

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
And you werent worried about it when you c/r'd a paired board on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I wasn't, because I had a whole lot more information on my opponents hand by the time the flop action occurred, the turn action occurred and on the river when the LAG bet and the CO overcalled, I knew I had the best hand.

Bottom line I had more info on the river to be able to make that play.

[Nikla]

You know how I feel about lyrics. Be it songs or poetry. I feel obliged to inform you that you're close to becoming the first poster on my ignorelist.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You know how I feel about lyrics. Be it songs or poetry. I feel obliged to inform you that you're close to becoming the first poster on my ignorelist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nikla, if you ignore him, I will do the same, just because it will be funny. We can get a club started, the "Ignore Schneids Club" and soon nobody will ever see his posts!!!! Come on, Nikla, get this started!

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know how I feel about lyrics. Be it songs or poetry. I feel obliged to inform you that you're close to becoming the first poster on my ignorelist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nikla, if you ignore him, I will do the same, just because it will be funny. We can get a club started, the "Ignore Schneids Club" and soon nobody will ever see his posts!!!! Come on, Nikla, get this started!

[/ QUOTE ]

Nikla knows if he ignores me I'll never give him a second HU match and a chance to win his money back /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Nikla]

LOL. No one can beat the hitnrun magic that is schneider.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I would definitely lead at the flop and call a raise

Why would you want MP to shut everyone out on your draw? Define a semibluff for me please, you are fogeting something. That flop texture begs a raise.

Bunk's line is perfect, river flawless.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

My sentiments exactly. The river was absolutely awesome, and something I've been trying to get across for a long time - checkraising the river when it's obvious your opponent has improved.
-James

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO best -&gt; worst flop play:

1. Check-call
2. Bet-call
3. Bet-3bet
4. Check-raise

The main reason I prefer check-calling over bet-calling is that the flop-turn stop n go if you hit is very seethrough.

[/ QUOTE ]


somewhere in Minnesota, Schneids is now crying, for his man-crush has disagreed with him

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO - so true.
-James

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. No one can beat the hitnrun magic that is schneider.

[/ QUOTE ]



wow

I think it's time for ignoreschneids. we need to tear down his empire of minions, starting with the one who refers to as Soiler

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's time for ignoreschneids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy, I actually like schneids posts. Even when I don't agree with him completely.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


UTG VPIP 19 PFR 19
HJ VPIP 20 PFR 19
CO VPIP 24 PFR 23
But VPIP 28 PFR 26


[/ QUOTE ]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz

[/ QUOTE ]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, look at your position compared to the preflop raiser

What?!?! Why? Want to shut others out? Don't like money? Like calling raises with only a draw? Forgot the definition of a semi-bluff?

Please, somebody give me a damn good reason.

Thanks,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling raises with "only" a draw. It's quite a strong draw, and there are many players, plus there is a chance that the preflop raiser will raise a again, increasing your overall expectation. With this many players There is a pot equity edge, therefore bets and raises are in order here. Bet the flop, all will call, MP or CO raise, all call again. Now they've all invested 2 bets; that's good for a flush draw, plus a gutshot (albeit a slightly weak one)