Playing a flop that missed.

[Pokey]

OK, here's a problem I have frequently, and I'm really not sure how to deal with it. The basic problem is when to bet, when to call, when to raise, and when to fold when the flop misses you completely. Let me set up some examples for your consideration.

1. Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Flop comes T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero is first to act. (Bet?)

2. Hero has Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Flop comes T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Two check to hero. (Bet?)

3a. Hero has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Four check to hero in last position. (Check through?)

3b. Hero has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Opener bets and two call, hero in last position. (Fold?)


4. Hero has K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. EP player bets. All fold to hero. (Fold?)

5. Hero has J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif. Flop comes A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB bets, two call. Hero is last to act. (Call?)

Brief explanations as to WHY you play the way you suggest would be greatly appreciated.

[toss]

Theres so many more variables you need to include in your examples.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]

1. Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Flop comes T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero is first to act. (Bet?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. I think it's to try and fold people out so if you spike an ace or a jack it holds up more often. I guess it also depends on the size of the pot and # of OPP.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Hero has Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Flop comes T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Two check to hero. (Bet?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet. You have two overcards and a gutshot. You want to get out J8 and other what not. Protect your weak draw.

[ QUOTE ]
3a. Hero has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Four check to hero in last position. (Check through?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see what betting accomplishes unless you think you can get a free card to the river. I check.

[ QUOTE ]
3b. Hero has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Opener bets and two call, hero in last position. (Fold?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold. You have 3 outs at best.


[ QUOTE ]
4. Hero has K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. EP player bets. All fold to hero. (Fold?)

[/ QUOTE ]

You have K high and no real redraws. Fold.

[ QUOTE ]
5. Hero has J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif. Flop comes A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB bets, two call. Hero is last to act. (Call?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise. You have much equity with the nut straight draw and a J-high flush draw...K-high, actually...but you get my drift.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
Theres so many more variables you need to include in your examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so true. I assumed it was a limped pot preflop...unknown amount of people.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
Theres so many more variables you need to include in your examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

So unless I boil the examples down to something so specific that it has no generic applicability, you can't give any information? I'm looking for guidelines here. Obviously, nothing is certain, and I'll feel free to adjust the advice based on the situation that presents itself, but are these examples really such awful starting points for giving advice?

Fill in blanks if you must and make whatever assumptions you need to -- that's just fine. Hell, the only reason I gave any examples at all was to get the advice flowing. Missed flop: what issues make you decide your next action?

[toss]

Well theres a couple thing that we use to help make decisions in these sorts of situations. I like to call it pot size and position.

[Harv72b]

These are strictly generic and may or may not be correct. /images/graemlins/grin.gif What I do changes a lot depending on reads on my opponents, my table image, and preflop play.

[ QUOTE ]
1. Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Flop comes T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero is first to act. (Bet?)

[/ QUOTE ]

check/call, fold for 2. I'm assuming Hero is in the blind and did not raise preflop; I autobet almost anything after a PFR.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Hero has Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Flop comes T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Two check to hero. (Bet?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet. You've got overcards + a gutshot to the nuts on a rainbow flop. You're not likely to have many draws out there, and on a suitably aggressive table, you are likely to have someone raise behind you to clear out your overcard outs.

[ QUOTE ]
3a. Hero has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Four check to hero in last position. (Check through?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Check through. Betting A high at a field of 4 is a recipe for disaster. However, once again, if I'd PFR'd preflop, I would bet this.

[ QUOTE ]
3b. Hero has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Opener bets and two call, hero in last position. (Fold?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy fold.


[ QUOTE ]
4. Hero has K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flop comes A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. EP player bets. All fold to hero. (Fold?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold to a typical EP player. This varies greatly in relation to the preflop play, however.

[ QUOTE ]
5. Hero has J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif. Flop comes A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB bets, two call. Hero is last to act. (Call?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise for the free card. This is a big, big draw with 4 outs to the nuts & 8 more to the 3rd nut flush.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
Well theres a couple thing that we use to help make decisions in these sorts of situations. I like to call it pot size and position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's the first two sentences of an insanely sarcastic but potentially useful post. So why did you stop with the sarcasm and leave out the content?

[ArturiusX]

You're very jumpy on people's responses today pokey, any particular reason?

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
You're very jumpy on people's responses today pokey, any particular reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I just see so many posts on these forums that are like Toss's: no content, no help, just pure attack of a player not worthy of a dignified response. People come to these forums asking for advice -- that's a real cap-in-hand move. It takes courage to stand up and admit that you're ignorant. That sort of courage should be rewarded with a sincere attempt to help out. If a person can't be bothered to help out sincerely, that's just fine -- nobody is obliged to assist. But to come into another person's thread, see a genuine and respectful request for assistance, and then take a big ol' crap on the person is profoundly inappropriate in my mind.

Perhaps I've seen too many posts like that today and I'm jumping at shadows now. Perhaps I AM overreacting. If so, and if I've offended you, I really do apologize. I don't want to be part of the problem.

I'll go unknot my panties now. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ArturiusX]

Remember, this is 2+2, its not happy fun land, its a military boot camp for high school drop outs. We're going to be harsh, we're going to make snide comments when people are wrong, and we're going to tell people that they suck and need to reconsider how they think about stuff.

It may get a little emotional, but in the words of Sklanksy "We must ultimately remember the only reason we are playing this game is to make money". Toss made a good point (pot odds and preflop are way to important to the questions you asked), and whether he's nice about it or not is irrelovant, whats relevant is finding the most EV of any play.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
Toss made a good point (pot odds and preflop are way to important to the questions you asked), and whether he's nice about it or not is irrelovant, whats relevant is finding the most EV of any play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your point but I disagree that Toss's posts exemplify it. Saying "pot odds and preflop" and moving on is like telling an engineering student that the secret to a moon shot is "thrust." You need to be a lil' more specific to actually HELP the person out.

I see many posts that are snide and nasty AND helpful. I start to get all pissy when the posts lack that vital third component.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Toss made a good point (pot odds and preflop are way to important to the questions you asked), and whether he's nice about it or not is irrelovant, whats relevant is finding the most EV of any play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your point but I disagree that Toss's posts exemplify it. Saying "pot odds and preflop" and moving on is like telling an engineering student that the secret to a moon shot is "thrust." You need to be a lil' more specific to actually HELP the person out.

I see many posts that are snide and nasty AND helpful. I start to get all pissy when the posts lack that vital third component.

[/ QUOTE ]

If wer'e gonna get all analogy-like here, toss' response was more like saying the secret to a moon shot is "thrust", and then he plunked down every physics text ever published. It's your job to go through the indices and read every entry for "thrust."

Like it or not, good or bad, this is a very common approach at 2+2. Those of us who have high post counts have been through it all before. New posters come in all the time. Most leave just as quick in a cloud of dust yelling things like "jerks" and "arrogant a-holes" on thier way out the door. Those who have the skin to stick around and contribute to the forum usually end up crushing poker.

Edit to add that any overcard strategy that doesn't consider the number, types and positions of opponents is deeply flawed.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
If wer'e gonna get all analogy-like here, toss' response was more like saying the secret to a moon shot is "thrust", and then he plunked down every physics text ever published.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where? Where did he do ANYTHING helpful? I didn't see a link, a reference, a book title, a suggestion, a previous post, or anything remotely useful. Again, if you're going to hide behind laziness, just go all out and leave the posts that are beneath your dignity alone. If you're going to take the time to crap on 'em, at least leave a tip.

[ QUOTE ]
New posters come in all the time. Most leave just as quick in a cloud of dust yelling things like "jerks" and "arrogant a-holes" on thier way out the door.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not heading for the door. I'm simply pointing out that those who do make an excellent point with their parting shots.

[ QUOTE ]
Those who have the skin to stick around and contribute to the forum usually end up crushing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody's saying there's not an amazing amount of poker knowledge to be had on these forums. I'm just saying that some people here make it needlessly painful to try to extract.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well theres a couple thing that we use to help make decisions in these sorts of situations. I like to call it pot size and position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's the first two sentences of an insanely sarcastic but potentially useful post. So why did you stop with the sarcasm and leave out the content?

[/ QUOTE ]

His post is very useful. He told you in a very simple way that you need to know the size of the pot and what position you're in. Also you need to know how many players are in the pot with you.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
His post is very useful. He told you in a very simple way that you need to know the size of the pot and what position you're in. Also you need to know how many players are in the pot with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made it clear in two separate posts that I don't WANT specific information; I want general guidelines. What sorts of things lead you to bet vs. raise vs. check/raise vs. check/call vs. fold. I asked nicely. Twice. I got nothing back.

Thank you to wrto and harv for trying to help me out here. As to the rest, I give up. You seem convinced that "Well theres a couple thing that we use to help make decisions in these sorts of situations. I like to call it pot size and position" is sage advice and not someone being a jerk; so be it. I agree to disagree.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His post is very useful. He told you in a very simple way that you need to know the size of the pot and what position you're in. Also you need to know how many players are in the pot with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made it clear in two separate posts that I don't WANT specific information; I want general guidelines. What sorts of things lead you to bet vs. raise vs. check/raise vs. check/call vs. fold. I asked nicely. Twice. I got nothing back.

Thank you to wrto and harv for trying to help me out here. As to the rest, I give up. You seem convinced that "Well theres a couple thing that we use to help make decisions in these sorts of situations. I like to call it pot size and position" is sage advice and not someone being a jerk; so be it. I agree to disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop being so sensitive and take it for what it's worth.

You're asking for general guidelines on hands that are very vague. There are no general guidelines to playing these hands. Playing overcards is not easy, you have to get experience and think through your decisions. It seems like you're trying to get some shortcuts to play poker, and they just don't work. Post some whiffed overcard hands here that are troubling you, that's going to help a lot more than posting vague hands that can have no good answer for how to play them without first knowing the specifics of the hand.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Where? Where did he do ANYTHING helpful? I didn't see a link, a reference, a book title, a suggestion, a previous post, or anything remotely useful. Again, if you're going to hide behind laziness, just go all out and leave the posts that are beneath your dignity alone. If you're going to take the time to crap on 'em, at least leave a tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the library. Some of the greatest poker minds past & present have posted thier knowledge here. But you have to dig.

You will never change the nature of the forum. What's more, if you did succeed in changing the nature of the forum, I actually think you would make the forum worse in the process. The same sorts of qualities it takes to be successful on the forums are also needed to be successful at poker. People who like the nature of the forums would also tend not to like the warm-fuzzy world where everyone said please & thank you, and would only post a helpful response that wasn't mean. I wouldn't. If the forum got all nice & PC, I'd probably be gone.

So ironically, motivated by making the forums a better learning tool, by making everyone only post nice posts, the forum would just end up being a lame, beige poker-like world.

[ErrantNight]

pokey... i don't want to be a dick...

but pick up a frickin' book, ok?

you've done a lot of work preparing this, but you leave out all sorts of essential information, not the least of which is... how big is the pot, and how many opponents are you up against? the fact that you include neither implies, to me, that you're not addressing either nearly enough... you're essentially asking us to break down playing overcards for you when they miss... that's why there are entire chapters in books dedicated to these sorts of things. now, if you disagree, can't understand, or are unsure how to apply the teachings in, say, SSH, that's when you should come forward with posts like these... or at least take the time and effort to provide all the pertinent information one NEEDS to make a decision in each instance. to me, the lack of information here is more telling than anything else. i don't think you need to be learning how to play missed flops, i think you need to learn more about position and odds and how to play in pots of various sizes. THEN come to cover this.

if you were just being lazy, and you know all these things, and you incorporate them into your play... stop being lazy, and choose a few of these to provide all the pertinent information, and offer your thinking on how you'd play the hand. then, we'll critique, or reinforce your opinion, depending on its quality.

As it is, this post is kinda trash.

But don't take me too harshly, I really mean well...

-Derek

[cold_cash]

I see nothing wrong with saying:

"Well it's difficult, if not impossible, to navigate these situations without more information. A few critical things that must be taken into account, and will play a very large role in the way these hands can best be played, are the size of the pot, the number of opponents, and your position. Without knowing these specifics it's really impossible to comment on stategy."

Instead of: "Well theres a couple thing that we use to help make decisions in these sorts of situations. I like to call it pot size and position."

Honestly, which one do you think would be more helpful to the original poster?

I have no problems with honesty and/or cutting to the chase, but I don't belive anyone can honestly think the answer to the question above is the second response.

[damaniac]

I agree with what most of the others said about specifics. Looking at hand 1, for ex, if it's heads up I tend to bet, depending on oppoent, did I raise pf, etc. If it's five-handed, easy check. You did provide number of opponents on other hands, but without pot size it's difficult to tell what to do. If you read SSHE (I assume you have) they have a very good section on overcards. Essentially you play them like any weak draw, count outs including backdoor draws, then play accordingly wrt pot size and opponents. So, obviously, pot size/opponents matter.

That being said, I can try to flesh out answers to a few hands.

2: If I'm against somewhat passive opponents, I'll often bet here and hope for a free card on the turn if I miss. Against more aggressive opponents I usually prefer to check behind.

3a is an easy check behind, you have like 3 outs tops.

3b is a fold unless the pot is pretty darn big (and then I wouldn't call because my A is going to be good almost never because it means there has probably been a good amount of preflop raising).

4 is probably a fold, if he has an A you're drawing almost dead, unless the player is highly likely to bet something other than an A into a large field and the pot is large.

And finally, just to nitpick, but on the last hand, the flop didn't miss you, it smacked you right in the face. You got 12 outs to a monster hand and 3 callers in front of you, raise that sucker for value, cap it if at all possible.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, this is 2+2, its not happy fun land, its a military boot camp for high school drop outs. We're going to be harsh, we're going to make snide comments when people are wrong, and we're going to tell people that they suck and need to reconsider how they think about stuff.

It may get a little emotional, but in the words of Sklanksy "We must ultimately remember the only reason we are playing this game is to make money". Toss made a good point (pot odds and preflop are way to important to the questions you asked), and whether he's nice about it or not is irrelovant, whats relevant is finding the most EV of any play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh so true.

Pokey, toss' point remains -- different pot sizes and positions make all those hands COMPLETELY differently to play. To give advice to you on them without some semblance of specifics would not only be hard, but it would be downright delinquint as you're much more likely to misapply said advice.

You need thicker skin to get through here. When you get some curt comments like toss', the best way to respond is to figure out how you can make your post more valuable.

In this case, for example... you'd be best served, IMO, by trimming this down to 2 or 3 hands (at a time, at least) and then offering up a few different scenarios.

You really need to understand that position and pot size can drastically change the way the correct way to play any of those hands, and "general guidelines" are worse than worthless -- they could be harmful.

[New001]

These all assume a PFR?

1. I'll bet, it often takes the pot down and you do have 2 overcards.

2. Bet and take a free card if it's given to you. You have overcards and a gutshot, and you can take the pot down right there.

3a. I check it through, fold UI on the turn.

3b. Fold, the only out I like is the BD flush.

4. Probably fold, but calling and seeing what he does on the turn might not be terrible. He could easily be betting a flush draw.

5. Raise with your flush draw and gutshot, probably take a free card if given, but it really depends.

[toss]

Yeah, sometimes I don't think when I post. To the original poster I highly suggest you purchase Small Stakes Hold'em buy Ed Miller if you already haven't. There is a chapter dedicated to playing overcards. Once you have a firmer grasp you can post hand examples in which you have missed overcards. Wehn you post such hand examples it would also be useful to share your thoughts on what you think you should do and why. Every decision we make in poker has a reason.

[Pokey]

Toss: thank you for taking the time to respond. I haven't read SSH in so long that I totally forgot about that chapter. I think I'm going to have to reread that book -- again -- for a refresher course. Great suggestion.

Everybody: all the major poker books from 2+2 say in them somewhere "review this book frequently to stay up on the content" or some such thing. How frequently do you go back and reread these books? Do you find it helpful when you do so? How quickly do diminishing returns set in? I've got about 10 poker books, and going back and rereading them all would take me a huge chunk of time, but I'm willing to give it a shot if people think it's incredibly useful.