I think you guys are all wrong.

[spoohunter]

It occured to me the other day that I don't play at all like any of the players here. And I don't think you guys play optimally. Not to say you don't win, I think you guys do, probably lots, but I think you make a few key mistakes.

#1 - You play too tight in raised pots.

Here's an example from the other day. I'm in LP with 87o and a player who I hadn't not observed anything incredible from raised to 4x the BB. We both have 200x the BB, he has me covered. I had position on him, I called, so did one other player.

The flop came down K86, two hearts, and he bet the pot on the flop. I called again. Here's why : Villian either has TP or better, and will bet the turn, or he has less than top pair and check. When he checks the turn, I bet the pot and fold AQ, AJ, A10, but more than that, QQ, JJ, 10-10.

Much more importantly than that, if he does have AK, KQ, AA, then he's in trouble. Why? Because he puts in 16x the BB and is risking 100x the BB or more.

This is a very clear cut hand, and yet, not one in twenty of you would have played it this way. Not one in twenty of you would have played it.

The play, but almost all the players who play low limits, is so weak post flop, that it is fine to put your money in preflop with weaker hands. You are sacrificing money preflop, for larger profits post flop. Which leads to my second rule :

#2 - It's not that easy to flop a pair.

You may get the idea that I am a pay off machine. And I do make alot of speculative calls on the flop. I get into alot of marginal hands. But I don't do anything like "always call the flop with middle pair" or "always pay off two pair". The situation is very dependent on the board, the action in previous rounds, etc. Basic hand reading.

Now, when people limp in, I play alot tighter than when someone raises. That's because, as Doyle says, six people just tried to flop the nuts for free (or almost). So when I limp in LP with 67s, and the flop comes 972, I'm check folding. But the very same hand against a preflop raiser, and I'm calling. Calling for information, calling for two pair, calling to fold to a turn bet and bet a turn check.
Should I raise? The problem is, when I raise, I'm all of a sudden paying him when he has me beat, and folding out worst hands. Yes I get six outs to fold, but is that worth laying him a pot sized raise? Or worse, what if he calls? Now I've got a horrible hand in a bloated pot. So I'm calling, to improve, and to find out what he has.

#3 - Sometimes it's ok to slowplay. Honest. At a certain stage, it is important to get value out of your hand than it is to protect the pot. The worse your opponent is, the more this is true. The better they are, the LESS this is true. Doing alot more flop calling against auto betters also allows you to disguise your set or better hands for an extra bet, especially against observant opponents.

Am I a loose passive fish? Maybe I am... but I'm winning more than ever. Maybe I'm a small stakes passive aggression Tommy in training. Maybe this is another way to win.

[beset7]

Many posters here have variant styles preflop especially.

[DavidC]

I don't use position enough. Thanks for the hand example.

--Dave.

[Niwa]

I mix it up with plays like these.

[mason55]

You're talking about hands where you have 200BB. Most of the advice around here is fr 100BB and less stacks. They're tw COMPLETELY different games. Yes your strategy wrks well, making many speculative calls against fish wh will take hands too far. I don't think anyne will disagree with you. It's just the difference between shrt and medium stack poker and big stack poker.

If you're doing this with shrt stacks you might be giving away a lt f might. Don't knw how far you'd take hands with shorter stacks.

(Srry if this is hard t read, the 'o' key n my keybard is breaking/broken).

[CallYNotRaise06]

i agree this strategy does work, i use it all the time at these low limit games. its pretty much using position to your advantage. but what do you do when your up againt a guy who will fire 2 bullets w/o a hand.

[Los Feliz Slim]

Keep in mind that the hands that are posted tend to be the "problem" hands. I doubt many of the other posters, like myself, post the hands where we play perfectly. That's why we (or at least I) post the hands: to have others help us see where we screwed up so we can avoid doing it again. Otherwise, it's a lot of "nice plays". I don't need to be told when I play well, I need to be told when I play badly.

I write this not to defend the forum, which has helped my game drastically, but to say that your thoughts are valuable and should be contributed on a hand-to-hand basis.

[grimel]

or the person who's paying attention and check raises the turn.

or the FPS guy who lives for a check raise

or the maniac that raises every street with rags.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree this strategy does work, i use it all the time at these low limit games. its pretty much using position to your advantage. but what do you do when your up againt a guy who will fire 2 bullets w/o a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You quickly figure out who this guy is and play differently against him. New posters here seem to want a complete roadmap to play like a robot. If you want to maximize profits you can't do that. Everyone has a nice general strategy, but if you run into someone who's firing two barrels with nothing then you OBVIOUSLY play differently against them.

[PinkSteel]

Have I got this right? I'm still building a game and might want to try this sometime. IF:
* there's a passive player at the table
* he raises from EP
* mostly folded to you in LP, so good chance of playing HU
* stacks are relatively deep

You're suggesting I STRONGLY CONSIDER CALLING, EVEN WITH RAGS. (Or should they at least be suited/connected?)

Because:
* your and Villain's hands very likely do not intersect at all
* if you hit the flop he very likely will have missed it
* if you don't hit the flop, you can just let it go and forget it
* he will never be able to put you on your hand
* with your position and a good flop, you stand a decent chance of taking him to the cleaners

You're right, I would generally never try this. But it's worth considering. Any other preconditions to calling pf in this situation?

It seems like the size of Villain's pfr would bear heavily on the decision to call. Call a minraise, sure, but for what raise do you just toss it?

[Ghazban]

It depends on the opponent. If you can get headsup with the original raiser and you know him to be weak-tight, then you don't care about hitting the flop with your random cards, you just want him to have not hit it (or for him to fold an overpair to your "obvious" set). In this case, stack sizes aren't all that important.

If the original raiser takes hands too far, you'd like him (and you) to be deep so that, when you flop a random two pair or odd straight, you can win a very large pot versus his overpair.

Against the tightie, you make money by him folding better hands. Against the overaggressive player, you make money by showing down the best hand. You will win a lot of small pots uncontested vs. the first (and probably lose the big ones) and you will lose many small pots to the second while winning the occasional monster.

[PinkSteel]

Thanks, great point about the fold equity when the opponent is tight/misses the flop.

I still think too much in terms of having the best hand, rather than taking down the pot.

[btetreau]

Along a similar line, I've found a new (to me) situation that I've been pulling in good pots with recently - anytime the board pairs. I've been doing it regardless of whether I've got a hand or not - for example, sitting on the button, villian min-raises PF in EP, not many (if any) players call, and I'm holding 33. I'll call. Flop comes J64 rainbow. Villian bets pot or less, I'll call.

I've gotten a lot more comfortable with these calls of late because I still have two outs to the set but more importantly I'll jump all over any scare card, particularly if the board pairs, and most of the time can get the bad guy to fold. So on a flop like that with smallish bets from villian, I see myself having at least 8 outs.... I'm sure this is second nature to many of you, but it's new to me and has been working very well. As someone mentioned, I'm starting to see it as winning the pots instead of having the best hand.... Good times!

[poboy]

This is all fine and good against the right opponent, namely weak-tight players. However from what I can tell the SSNL games aren't dominated by weak-tights, there are far more calling stations and LAG's. In a game where you will regularly be called down by TPNK and worse(which is the norm at SSNL), this strategy just seems like chip spewing. JMO

[BobboFitos]

this is an interesting idea

havent read replies or more of the thread

deals with deeper stack poker (200x bb)

but I think if you are playing vs a player who has the hand range of AA-TT AK-AJ then this may or may not be pos EV, depending how easily they will drop QQ-TT and/or pay off two pair with AA or AK.

I also think your argument deals with position poker moreso then pair poker, if you understand what i say

as for #2, i love taking the small pots, if 6 people (well, maybe not 6) and i have 67 a 9 7 2 rainbow board is great to take down.

#3 is sorta dumb, no kidding it's ok to slowplay.

[BobboFitos]

i think this play you mention is bad

if it's yielding positive results so far youre just running lucky

sorry

[SeattleJake]

I would say that it's still about having the best hand most of the time.

This differs quite a bit from the OP. Hero there has second pair, and is betting that Villain does not have a K. The resulting actions will define things quite clearly. You're getting 2:1 odds with 2 outs, and are betting that Villain doesn't have anything.

If you're going to make this play, you need to be aware of the stack sizes and your position with regard to the pre-flop raiser. You should also consider modifying your calling pairs to increase your chances of having the best hand: If it's the high card that's paired, then I want a pocket pair over the low card; if it's the low card that's paired, then I want a pocket pair over the high card.

The play works mostly because it's aggressive. But you need to be aware of how often you have to win (the small pots) in order to make up for the times you lose (the big pots). Running it every time the board pairs will lead to disaster.