AKo in SB

[EMcWilliams]

If I said that cards ran below average for me during this session, that would be putting it nicely. Anywaym should I have raised pre-flop in this situation. I saw it as being OoP and I would get at least 3-4 callers. Cheers.


Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($3.10)
UTG+1 ($8.01)
UTG+2 ($8.50)
MP1 ($6.70)
MP2 ($41.81)
MP3 ($10.50)
CO ($14)
Button ($4.50)
Hero ($4.18)
BB ($12.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, UTG+2 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $0.10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.70) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets $0.1</font>, MP1 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Hero folds, BB folds, UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($1.10) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets $0.5</font>, MP1 folds, CO folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $1.60

[EMcWilliams]

Yea, I posted this earlier today, and I didnt get a response. I know this may seem trival to y'all, but I was honestly unsure of how to play this, so any advice is appreciated.

[Balla2hot4u]

i'll throw in my .02 here but i am not a pro.. first i would def raise here preflop.. then raise again on flop prob get a couple to fold and i'd say pair of jacks calls you.. then u hit the turn and raise. check/call river!
-Adam

[EMcWilliams]

I had thought about raising, but I realized I was OoP, and if I raised I'd mentally commit myself to this pot, cause frankly it was the best hand I had seen in a while. It was a mistake, but I was seening given the huge number of limpers, what was the plan of action.

[NYCNative]

I would have raised big, actually. AK is a drawing hand, yes, but it's still the 5th best hand in Hold 'Em.

If the players were even halfway decent, they would see a player who hasn't played many hands making a big raise out of position.

Even if they're not, you still have a strong hand and if they're that bad that they don't get something as simple as "rock is betting big" they won't even understand your weaker position and you can outplay them from there if they don't hit the flop - and that flop was ugly...

You make a 6-8xBB raise then come out with a pot-size bet there after that mess of a flop and the only people who call hit trips against the odds. Maybe someone played AT but really, very few legitinate hands would be ahead of you after that flop assuming you limited the competition with a raise.

[MikeL]

[ QUOTE ]
i'll throw in my .02 here but i am not a pro.. first i would def raise here preflop.. then raise again on flop prob get a couple to fold and i'd say pair of jacks calls you.. then u hit the turn and raise. check/call river!
-Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

There seems to be two differing camps on how to play AK in EP
(at least of the choices that seem like they would be profitable).

Adam correctly details how to play the more aggressive of
these camps. Fire a bet like you're holding AA/KK preflop.
Then, follow up with the second barrel on a garbage flop
and give the opposition a chance to fold.

The other camp says to limp in EP. If you whiff on the flop,
fold, as you have very little invested in the pot right now.

My gut feeling tells me that for SSNL, the weaker of the two
options is probably safest for most people, particularly with
deep stacks. Here's why:

1) AK is most likely looking to hit TPTK.
2) TPTK is not strong enough to play for your stack.
3) Even if you nut-no pair is best at the flop, SSNL
tables are known for having people willing to draw
to see the next card; they don't care about no stinkin'
odds.
4) The deeper the stacks, the greater your mistake will be
for playing your TPTK (or nut no pair) too hard if you
are not able to let go.

Regards,
Mike L.

[PinkSteel]

I'd also raise preflop, on the grounds that AKo is not so good playing in a family pot; I'd rather play it against one or two opponents. So I raise to drive others out, especially since everyone at the table has position on me.

[naphinfitos]

Here I commit the cardinal sin and push. Huge overbet, but for small stakes this could get a call easily from AQ, AJ, AT, etc. That being said I'd say my second favorite way of playing this pot would be to put in a medium raise. Maybe make it .40. This probably won't knock out any preflop limpers, but it will give you sick potodds. You're only gonna hit that A or K like 1/3 of the time, but when you do you can build a nice pot because now betting half pot is a dollar. Basically putting in a small raise accomplishes the same thing as limping, however it increases your EV because you're getting your opponents to put more money in when you're the favorite.

I'd also like to mention that you winrate drops drastically when you don't put in a big PF raise. However, you still win more money because when you miss you fold, but when you hit, you have the best handmost of the time and should get action. Basically it's a question of variance vs EV.

[swolfe]

you can always push preflop. you probably have the best hand at that point and you'll take down a decent pot when everyone folds most of the time.

it'll also set it up later so that you can push preflop with AA and get callers /images/graemlins/smile.gif

the way you played the hand is fine, if extremely weak. if you can't raise enough preflop to get it heads up or 3-handed without getting pot-committed, then it's fine to complete and play it cautiously.

i'd have probably pushed.

[Mike Cuneo]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised big, actually. AK is a drawing hand, yes, but it's still the 5th best hand in Hold 'Em.


[/ QUOTE ] The 5th best hand? Where is your proof of this? And my advice is to raise here about the size of the pot. It will get hands like 22-99 out and also drawing hands like 78s. If you get played back at, you have a decision to make based on your read of the player. If you just limp, what happens if the flop comes AA6 and someone has 66? Or even A78? You are certainly ahead of most, if not all the limpers, so why not push your edge with a raise? The only reason not to is your position.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
And my advice is to raise here about the size of the pot. It will get hands like 22-99 out and also drawing hands like 78s.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

you're crazy if you think those hands are folding.

[-Skeme-]

Then why are we pushing?

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Then why are we pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
you're crazy if you think those hands are folding to a pot sized raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

fixed my post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[EMcWilliams]

In retrospect,I like the pushing play more and more, as it was a passive, loose table, and it takes away any positional advantage...

[-Skeme-]

Ah, gotcha. Didn't catch the whole pot sized raise comment.

[The_Bends]

I'll have a go.

On the whole raise/don't raise debate I think raising is the only sensible option. I don't know about anyone else but I feel much safer in a raised pot. Even at these SS people will fold utter garbage to a big PF raise. By the time the action gets to the hero the pot is .65 I'd chuck out a raise of $1.20, double the pot. The PP will call but they;re exactly the kind of hands you want in. If they don't hit the flop then you can take it down. If they do and you haveonly TPTK you'll be good enoguh to get away from it.

Having raised strongly I'd lead this flop with three callers or less. AQ/AJ will bin their hand as will almost all PP under T that havnt' hit a set. I'd basically play as if I had AA untill the flop, if I got reraised I'd fold, if I got called I'd slow right down unless I had enough of a read to think he was on a draw.

by not raising PF you're playing scared. OUtplaying 6 people postflop is almost impossible, you have no read and evey single posible hand combination is out there. On the other hand outplaying 3 SS players is very easy indeed. Back yourself and raise it up.

[MikeL]

[ QUOTE ]
by not raising PF you're playing scared. OUtplaying 6 people postflop is almost impossible, you have no read and evey single posible hand combination is out there. On the other hand outplaying 3 SS players is very easy indeed. Back yourself and raise it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is EP, not MP or EP. It's not playing scared, it's
playing positionally. I'd be interested in knowing your
profit margin (look in PT) for AK in EP when you only
have high card at the flop. I'd bet you are gushing chips.

Regards,
Mike L.

[Balla2hot4u]

i have found myself that when i have a great prefolp hand like AA,KK,QQ,AK i do not raise enough as i almost always get sucked out on draw cards etc... i have been trying to slow play hands i most likey would have had won at the flop because no one is giving me action and i want to tget paid off on my hand.. then they hit and im screwed.. then when i have a hand i want to call and they make a bet to push me out.. then the next card gives me the nuts.. i get pissed.. so i am trying to learn the best play for raising certain hands and trying to determine what other people may have in calling a bet! And i also find myself playing very smart in the beggining and doubling up in a short amount of time.. then getting way too loose calling with BS to see the flop and chasing too much.. gotta work on some things.. and my biggest problem is my cash flow.. out of work right now so in fear of losing my roll when i do get down short stacked.. not a good thing for a poker player i know but a bunch of things i def need to work on! this site is helping a tremendous amount thanks guys!
-Adam