I might hate this one

[Justin A]

Party $2/4

I open from MP1 with A /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif. Three cold callers behind me and the BB calls. Five ways for ten small bets.

Flop KK9 rainbow, one of my suit. Checked to the button who bets, BB folds, I call and one other guy calls.

Turn Td, there was one diamond on the flop. Checked to button who bets, I call, other guy folds.

River is 7s, my plan is to check and call.

[gaming_mouse]

I'd fold the turn. There is a very good chance you are against trips, or possibly even JJ or QQ.

[sthief09]

I'd lead out on the turn. you don't want it getting checked through, and the button will often autobet the flop if checked to.

[sthief09]

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I'd fold the turn. There is a very good chance you are against trips, or possibly even JJ or QQ.

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I hate folding the turn, but if you're folding the turn you should fold the flop

[Shillx]

Bet the turn. People will oftentimes just take stabs at the pot when checked to and your hand is vulnerable to a variety of straight possibilities. The button might have a king, but he might just have a nine or QT or nothing at all.

Brad

[mr pink]

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I'd lead out on the turn.

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and fold to a raise?

i think it'd be hard for him to bluff raise here because it's very likely you'd have a king based on the action

[sthief09]

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I'd lead out on the turn.

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and fold to a raise?

i think it'd be hard for him to bluff raise here because it's very likely you'd have a king based on the action

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why is it very likely he has a K based on the action? why does his opponent have to even be thinking that he has a K based on the action. I'd call a raise. there are a lot of idiots and without a read you can't assume he's not one

[Yerma]

Bet the turn and fold to a raise.

I'm trying to figure out why you called on the flop?

[sthief09]

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I'm trying to figure out why you called on the flop?

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because he's getting a lot:a little

[mr pink]

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why is it very likely he has a K based on the action? why does his opponent have to even be thinking that he has a K based on the action. I'd call a raise. there are a lot of idiots and without a read you can't assume he's not one

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at least from his perspective, hero raised preflop then check/called a paired flop then led the turn. if you're the villain in this hand, don't wouldn't you be thinking this line looks like trip kings?

[sthief09]

from his perspective, he's thinking "me have nines" or "me have trips"

he could tend to raise either.

[Yerma]

No he's not. 12:1 for one overcard and a running flush on a paired board isn't a lot. Maybe 15:1 and he can play.

[sthief09]

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No he's not. 12:1 for one overcard and a running flush on a paired board isn't a lot. Maybe 15:1 and he can play.

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there's also a chance he has the best hand, and that's significant. if you think this guy has trips more than 2/3 of the time you're nuts. easy call

[Justin A]

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No he's not. 12:1 for one overcard and a running flush on a paired board isn't a lot. Maybe 15:1 and he can play.

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Part of my reasoning here is that my ten will be good a good portion of the time. It doesn't mean much when the last person to act on the flop bets.

[Justin A]

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I'd lead out on the turn. you don't want it getting checked through, and the button will often autobet the flop if checked to.

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Yeah I like this line best.

Given the way I played it, is betting out on the river better than check/calling?

[Pokey]

OK, I'll freely admit this is a problem with my game, so I'm honestly looking for some feedback here.

You raise first in from MP with ATs -- understood, makes perfect sense to me.

Flop misses you, no two ways about it. Backdoor flushes aside, you've got bupkiss here. Against any 9, you've got 6 outs. Against any K, you've got about 1.5 outs. You check the flop, indicating "I swung and I missed." Button decides to bet this.

Are you just naturally assuming that Button is betting position? And if you do assume so, why only call instead of raising him back? It seems to me that this is a position where it's not worth fighting for the pot, but if you decide it IS worth fighting for, you at least need to fight, and calling won't do that.

Hypothetical situation: if the original bet came from BB instead of the button, would you still call, or would you fold? (In this position, I'm thinking I'm folding.)

On the turn, why check to the button? You really need some extra information about what he has, and a bet here would be mighty tasty. If he raises, you can assume he's got Ks and you can run away. If he just calls, then you can feel more confident about your hand being good. If he folds...well, that one's kinda self-explanatory.

[Justin A]

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Flop misses you, no two ways about it. Backdoor flushes aside, you've got bupkiss here. Against any 9, you've got 6 outs. Against any K, you've got about 1.5 outs. You check the flop, indicating "I swung and I missed." Button decides to bet this.

Are you just naturally assuming that Button is betting position? And if you do assume so, why only call instead of raising him back? It seems to me that this is a position where it's not worth fighting for the pot, but if you decide it IS worth fighting for, you at least need to fight, and calling won't do that.

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When it's checked to the button in a big pot like this, he's betting a very very wide range of hands. It's more likely that he doesn't have a king. Based on this I figure I've got six outs most of the time for my pairs, and 1.5 outs for my backdoor flush draw. my pair outs are good probably more than 2/3 of the time.

The pot is very big at this point, so I'm calling to see what the turn brings, and hopefully get a better idea where I stand. I will win this pot with ace high on occasion, which further pushes this to a call.

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Hypothetical situation: if the original bet came from BB instead of the button, would you still call, or would you fold? (In this position, I'm thinking I'm folding.)

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I'm probably folding, but only because there's a decent chance of a raise behind me. If I knew I'd only have to pay one bet then I'd call a bet from the BB also.

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On the turn, why check to the button? You really need some extra information about what he has, and a bet here would be mighty tasty. If he raises, you can assume he's got Ks and you can run away. If he just calls, then you can feel more confident about your hand being good. If he folds...well, that one's kinda self-explanatory.

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Yeah this is the part I don't like. I should have bet out here, but I don't think I can fold to a raise.

[sthief09]

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I'd lead out on the turn. you don't want it getting checked through, and the button will often autobet the flop if checked to.

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Yeah I like this line best.

Given the way I played it, is betting out on the river better than check/calling?

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I think it is

[gaming_mouse]

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I'd fold the turn. There is a very good chance you are against trips, or possibly even JJ or QQ.

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I hate folding the turn, but if you're folding the turn you should fold the flop

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Josh,

Why do hate folding the turn so much? I grant that the button's bet alone doesn't mean much, but there was another caller too, and people love to slowplay their trips like this.

Also, I don't think fold the turn implies fold the flop. You have odds (or at least implied odds) with just your backdoor draws alone to call 1 SB on the flop.

[sthief09]

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I'd fold the turn. There is a very good chance you are against trips, or possibly even JJ or QQ.

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I hate folding the turn, but if you're folding the turn you should fold the flop

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Josh,

Why do hate folding the turn so much? I grant that the button's bet alone doesn't mean much, but there was another caller too, and people love to slowplay their trips like this.

Also, I don't think fold the turn implies fold the flop. You have odds (or at least implied odds) with just your backdoor draws alone to call 1 SB on the flop.

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12:1 for 2 outs? the flop call depends on the pair outs being good some part of the tiem.

and I hate folding because you have top pair and no one has shown all that much interest. and on people slowplaying trips, it means something when a tight player checks and calls from late position. it means nothing when a loose player does it. thinking that a last position bet on the flop and turn means QQ, JJ, or trips is insane. weak-tight stage?

[gaming_mouse]

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12:1 for 2 outs? the flop call depends on the pair outs being good some part of the tiem.

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Yeah, you're right. I missed that the str8 was perfect perfect -- I was mistakenly giving him 3 outs instead of 2.

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it means nothing when a loose player does it. thinking that a last position bet on the flop and turn means QQ, JJ, or trips is insane. weak-tight stage?

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yeah, weak-tight play serves me well sometimes. I am naturally too aggressive, and the extra discipline (while sometimes overcompensating) saves me alot of money on balance. All of my big downswings have been due in some part to LAGgy play.

Anyway, like I said, I was more worried about the caller than the bettor. You said that the c/call means nothing when a loose player does it, but how do we know this guy is loose? I still think folding the flop is just fine here. If you think it's really bad, I'd appreciate some more convincing.

[sthief09]

the flop call isn't going to make you rich. I just happen to like it better than raising or folding. it's just a pure math question

and yeah, weak-tight play is often good, but that's usually with mediocre hands. being weak-tight with top pair (by folding or failing to protect) will cost you money