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View Full Version : Online .5/1 tighter than 2/4?


moot
04-24-2005, 06:46 PM
This has probably been posted before but oh well. And yes, my sample size is too small. Oh well. I'll get back to you after I've logged 500,000 hands.

Anyway...

I recently moved up from .5/1 to 2/4 (at PartyPoker), skipping 1/2 because I'm bankrolled for higher, and because I just don't like 1/2 (for dumb and illogical reasons). But that's beside the point, because I consider myself a good enough player to beat 2/4, and I'm willing to lose some big bets finding out.

Thus far I'm really liking 2/4, and the biggest thing I've noticed is that it seems MUCH LOOSER than .5/1. The average pot size (reduced to big bets) seems much larger at 2/4. At .5/1 I often find it hard to find games with an average of more than 7x big bets, but no so at 2/4. Overall I find it a lot easier to get find nice loose game were plays make rediculous errors.

The play in general just seems much looser. Often times at .5/1, though players are somewhat confused, most of them seem to have a somewhat decent understanding of poker logic. They seem somewhat willing to actually "think" in a hand. But not so at 2/4. The calls are just absurd. Yes, there are plenty of bad calls and bad players at .5/1, but not to the degree as 2/4.

Granted my experince at 2/4 is a bit limited, but nonetheless I wonder if it might actually be looser. This makes sense for several reasons:

1) True students of the game of poker tend to like to float around a lower limit, correctly playing within their bankroll. Since many of these so-called "students" have picked this up as a hobby, they will likely start at the lowest limit, building up a bankroll from scatch, and hovering at the lower limits for a while. This seems to suggest there might be a great clumping of decent players at the .5/1 PartyPoker.

2) Someone with a fulltime job who wants to play poker for fun and just mess around probably isn't going to play .5/1. It's just too small and they want big action and big pots. They can safely play something like 2/4 or 3/6 without a big dent in their yearly income (assuming they're playing recreationally and not every day for hours at time). Even bad players win pots; they're not going to lose it too fast.

3) Fans of casino play will likely want to play something that resembles the limits. No one plays .5/1 at a casino. They play 2/4, 3/6, 4/8, etc; often times in kill games. When they venture online they're likely to play at a similar limit.

4) The type of players actually willing to wait for a good hand and play tight are often the same players that like the safe plays. They don't like huge swings and jammed pots. They sit at the .5/1 with a few tables open and patiently wait, safely grinding it out. When they take a bad beat they lose 10 bucks instead of 40.

These are all EXTREMELY speculative statements, based on little solid evidence or research, but I still think they are worth considering and would like to hear others thoughts on the matter.

handsome
04-24-2005, 06:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'll get back to you after I've logged 500,000 hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol. you're crazy. The smallest games are always going to be the loosest. this is true online and in B&M casinos. the looseness of $0.50/1 doesn't even come close

Gotmilk
04-24-2005, 06:53 PM
I disagree-- I watch my girlfriend play 3/6 on Party and it often seems tougher in than the 15/30. My theory is 3/6 has more grinders and if people come to gamble, they'll play the 15/30.

kenberman
04-24-2005, 07:08 PM
exactly how many hands do you have at 2/4?

Corey
04-24-2005, 07:19 PM
horrendous table selection at .5/1.0

I'll cede $1/$2 full is tigher that $2/$4, but .5/1 is by far an away the loosest game at Party/Skins.

Rah
04-24-2005, 07:19 PM
1/2 might be tighter than 2/4, but 0.5/1? Get a grip

steaknshake925
04-24-2005, 07:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
horrendous table selection at .5/1.0

[/ QUOTE ]

or, maybe he has godlike table selection at 2/4?

Corey
04-24-2005, 07:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
horrendous table selection at .5/1.0

[/ QUOTE ]

or, maybe he has godlike table selection at 2/4?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh how I wish I had that skill /images/graemlins/frown.gif

ThaSaltCracka
04-24-2005, 07:42 PM
the last 10 tables I have been on at .50/1 have all had VPIP's over 35%, some well over 40%, and this was for over an hour per.

Shoe
04-24-2005, 07:47 PM
Yes, move up the limits, the higher you go the easier the games get.

moot
04-24-2005, 08:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, move up the limits, the higher you go the easier the games get.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously I'm not saying that.

brazilio
04-24-2005, 08:42 PM
I came in here expecting a prank, instead it's a seriously and well-thought out long piece of fiction. Thanks for the read buddy, 100/200 is definitely easier than .5/1.

NotReady
04-24-2005, 08:47 PM
I don't think you're too far off. These numbers include some hands from 2 years ago, most are more recent.

limit hands VP$IP SF BB/Pot PFR
.5/1 52243 33.30 39.55 7.79 5.55
2/4 25503 32.55 38.69 7.4 5.46

And some data mining

15/30 125440 30.59 33.09 7.2 10.36

Biggest diff is obviously PFR on 15/30.

BTW, I recently came back to .5/1 on Party this year, for various reasons including bonus clearing, and at first thought it was much tighter than it used to be, but my numbers from 2 years ago show it was only slightly looser.

Corey
04-24-2005, 08:49 PM
It's not the preflop hand selection that seperates .5/1 froom the rest, it's the amazing calling stations that provide the profit at the .5/1 level.

NotReady
04-24-2005, 08:55 PM
I don't doubt .5/1 is the best full game on Party, but the closeness in average pot size is interesting. I would like to see the numbers for 3/6, 5/10 and 10/20.

toby
04-24-2005, 09:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's not the preflop hand selection that seperates .5/1 froom the rest, it's the amazing calling stations that provide the profit at the .5/1 level.

[/ QUOTE ]

amen

Isura
04-24-2005, 09:51 PM
.5/1 < 1/2 < 2/4 in difficulty level. 2/4 may be looser, but it does not mean that 1/2 is any more difficult to beat. Less good 2+2ers at 1/2.

kdog
04-24-2005, 10:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
1) True students of the game of poker tend to like to float around a lower limit, correctly playing within their bankroll. Since many of these so-called "students" have picked this up as a hobby, they will likely start at the lowest limit, building up a bankroll from scatch, and hovering at the lower limits for a while. This seems to suggest there might be a great clumping of decent players at the .5/1 PartyPoker

[/ QUOTE ]

I highly doubt this.

brazilio
04-24-2005, 10:14 PM
Maybe you don't get this, but not only are there a huge number of bad players at .5/1, but significant number of bad 2+2ers at .5/1. That's why they're there, after all.

Kevin K.
04-25-2005, 12:11 AM
Come back after you play those 500k hands, seriously.

badplayer
04-25-2005, 01:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you don't get this, but not only are there a huge number of bad players at .5/1, but significant number of bad 2+2ers at .5/1. That's why they're there, after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. I'm one of them.

moot
04-25-2005, 01:54 AM
Wow, I have to say I really like the people who are chiming in with comments like, "I think 1/2 is harder than .5/1 but you're a complete moron to assume that 2/4 is easier than .5/1. I mean, that's just IMPOSSIBLE."

Like I said my comments are purely speculative, but I still believe there a variety of reasons why the lowest limit might not necessarily be the easiest. So rather than a gradual curve (of limits getting harder and harder), I would suggest that the cuver slopes down at first (getting easier), before rising up. Now, some of you have said that you think this might be the case for 1/2, is it really that much of a stetch to at least consider 2/4?

Also, you point to the fact that .5/1 has many calling stations. Often times this is nice, but in some cases you run in to a large number of players who call down at a disadvantage (with gutshots and midpairs, etc) and then raise when/if they hit. Obviously you don't mind this, because in the long run they lose and you win. But at a slightly higher limit I think there are pronounced benefits of aggressive players who rather than call when it's hopeless, instead raise when it's hopeless. Often times raising is better that just calling, but in my experience most players don't recognize the difference, and time and time again they raise and get overly aggressive when they should just fold.

Also, the number of players willing to cold call 3 bets is absolutely rediculous. In .5/1 I rarely if ever see someone cold call 3, but at 2/4 I see it much more often. The calling stations of .5/1 seem to recognize that 3 betting signifies strength, where 2/4 players in their action-oriented play just don't.

Also, you say that .5/1 has a large grouping of unskilled 2+2'ers, and you say that as if it's a good thing. Yeah, well I'd rather take on a 5 year vet of the game who's done little actual study than a beginner who's spent one month at 2+2. A bad 2+2'er is significantly better than the average player.

grimel
04-25-2005, 02:03 AM
me too, unless I'm at 1/2 (or NL making $$ to learn limit).

Kevin K.
04-25-2005, 02:29 AM
So much of your original post is based on conjecture, though. Your possible reasons for why certain players might play at certain limits seem to stem from personal opinion.

The bottom line is that in poker you keep score with money. Players who are good enough to win consistently at a given level do so and move up according to bankroll. There is no way that there are enough action junkies and weekend warriors dumping cash at 2/4 to make the overall quality of play worse there than at .50/1.

brazilio
04-25-2005, 02:46 AM
If you don't understand level dynamics other than easy or hard, then you haven't played nearly enough to many any sweeping judgements like you've made. The differences between .5/1, 1/2 and 2/4 are significant, and VP$IP is about the lamest statistic you could use to define anything about the levels.

LuckyStrike
04-25-2005, 03:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It's not the preflop hand selection that seperates .5/1 froom the rest, it's the amazing calling stations that provide the profit at the .5/1 level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on. I recently moved up to 1/2 and while you can sometimes find tables that are as loose preflop as .5/1, rarely will you find the calling stations that are so abundant at .5/1.