Standard flop decision

[Roy6]

Without reads what do you do here?
I expect a SB to cap with AK/KK/JJ so it seems I'm behind here most of the time. Raise the flop and fold to a 3-bet? Peel one off and see if it gives me an inside draw or a weak flush draw? If I simply fold this flop everyone will try to bluff me out I guess..


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero ...

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
If I simply fold this flop everyone will try to bluff me out I guess..

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what I'd do. I might raise, fold to 3-bet. I might just fold.

But I do know that everyone will NOT try and bluff you out if you fold here. Plus you can always change tables.

Krishan

[imitation]

Call down, check if checked to.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Call down, check if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

The effective odds on calling down are terrible. How do you justify it?

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

the effective odds aren't that terrible. If villain bets each street, hero is looking at paying 5sb to win 13sb or 13:5 effective odds, which are a little better than 2.5:1. I think hero has the best hand here more than one in every 3.5 times. Plus he has backdoor straight and flush draws. One could argue that another line is better I suppose, but I dont think calling down is so bad.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
the effective odds aren't that terrible. If villain bets each street, hero is looking at paying 5sb to win 13sb or 13:5 effective odds, which are a little better than 2.5:1. I think hero has the best hand here more than one in every 3.5 times. Plus he has backdoor straight and flush draws. One could argue that another line is better I suppose, but I dont think calling down is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me a range of hands. I'll do the baysian. We are way way worse than 2.5/1 here.

Krishan

[arkady]

Roy,

I am afraid this is exactly the case where a standard line does not work. Simply impossible. I would prefer to get past the flop and see what happens on the turn . I got position, i am raising, but in reality that kind of flop favors the kind of player u describe big time. If I get 3-bet I will have to fold and not get suckered in by something yummy...like J /images/graemlins/heart.gif


P.S. Folding to a capper on the flop for 1 bet/3-bet is not something that will ruin your image. I would not be all that concerned with that aspect quite yet.

[BottlesOf]

Raising 10%
Calling 50%
Folding 40%

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]

I might raise, fold to 3-bet. I might just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Krishan,

How can folding for 1 bet on the flop(9:1) be right here? You have backdoor straight and flush draws and a set draw.

[arkady]

Cuz I think 88% of the time you are looking at RR to win. Some of those times it might even be a chop. That is why it might be to correct to fold for 1 more bet.

These hand imo will 3 bet. The other hands that SB might have, might not 3-bet and were not included here.

Hand 1: 11.4316 % [ 00.11 00.00 ] { QhQc }
Hand 2: 88.5684 % [ 00.89 00.00 ] { AA-KK, TT, AKs-AJs, AKo }

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I might raise, fold to 3-bet. I might just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Krishan,

How can folding for 1 bet on the flop(9:1) be right here? You have backdoor straight and flush draws and a set draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right. I don't give any outs to the backdoor straight draw. It requires 2 perfect cards. I'd only count the flush, set outs. 3-outs isn't quite enough but if you count the times, he checks the turn with JJ, KK I think you can draw on the flop getting 9-1.

Krishan

[imitation]

Huh the SB will cap with alot alot more hands than you guys are narrowing it down to, especially against the typical image that a 2p2er has. I think you guys are way off base. I play this hand exactly as I might play Axo here, call down. I think this is just intuitively correct for the image I maintain at the table.

[balkii]

whatever you do, don't fold.

[jquattro]

I agree, given a lack of reads, it would be illogical to narrow SB's cards to such a range. Original raise could be a blind steal, while the cap can be caused by a variety of reasons other than having a monster, such as not believing your 3bet, being angered at a reraise or perhaps because he's crazy aggressive.

The flop bet is automatic given he capped preflop, but that doesn't necessarily mean hes got top pair.

Difficult to say what the correct play is. I like calling down, because I figure if a wider range of hands are added, it's closer to 50-50.

Beyond this hand, I think my point is that we mustn't forget why we make so much money playing this great game. In addition to our own genius, our opponents complete lack of rationale pads our BB/100. Don't give them so much credit, particularly when you have no reads. Without reads you can only guess that they're an average online player, an illogical idiot.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
Cuz I think 88% of the time you are looking at RR to win. Some of those times it might even be a chop. That is why it might be to correct to fold for 1 more bet.

These hand imo will 3 bet. The other hands that SB might have, might not 3-bet and were not included here.

Hand 1: 11.4316 % [ 00.11 00.00 ] { QhQc }
Hand 2: 88.5684 % [ 00.89 00.00 ] { AA-KK, TT, AKs-AJs, AKo }

[/ QUOTE ]

arkady please, that is a joke of a hand range against an unknown.

easy call down, and i believe a fairly easy bet when checked to on any street.

[arkady]

Whoa, that is a range I put on someone who not only capped preflop, but also 3-bet. I was discussing the merits of folding to a 3-bet.

[balkii]

AAAAAH. much more logical.

I wouldnt raise this flop though. I'm not exactly sure what the point would be?

[arkady]

People questioning my logic is nothing new /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The point of the raise? Well I would guess it is probably to get a free card. It really is such a player specific situation that is it hard to say what the best line is.

[balkii]

I understand that you are not adamant about raising here, but I do think its absolutely incorrect.

I would much rather see a turn card here for 1 SB, rather than risk paying 1 BB and not even getting to see the turn (let alone teh river).

Free cards are not given lightly in this game, and if he actually just called the raise and checked to you on the turn I would expect you to be ahead a decent amount of the time, thus making taking the free card a mistake!

If you dont wanna get to showdown here, well thats opponent-read dependant and thats fine if thats your bag, but the turn can bring your equity in this hand way up, I really think you need to make it at least that far.

[arkady]

I am far from adamant. Look at my first/second sentence(s) of my first reply.

[balkii]

yes thats why i stated that! /images/graemlins/smile.gif my response is more directed towards general thread discussion

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

Folding 40%

[/ QUOTE ]



that seems waaaaaaay too high

[imitation]

I see no reason to fold this hand, and I see no reason to bet this hand when checked to. Opponent has 2 outs most of the time, check through turn and bet river if checked again. I cannot understand why anyone would raise here on the flop. Take this to show down, and play the hand weakly you will maximise your earn. I think raising the flop after PF cap would be hideously incorrect.

[Jeff W]

I agree with you, imitation. However, I bet the river if checked to after SB bets flop and turn.

Edit: Actually, I'm betting when checked to on the turn also.

[balkii]

imitation, your post suggests that if your opponent checks he is planning on folding something like a lower pocket pair. i disagree, if he check its because he doesnt want to get raised. doesnt mean hes not going to showdown with it. these guys just dont fold like that in a pot like this.

[imitation]

No I think after PF cap he will try and CR the turn alot on a bluff after you flat call the flop. Because these players are geese.

[BottlesOf]

Yes, it does. Hmmn, i'll get back to that. I still see me folding more than I raise though with calling being the clear #1

[imported_azalin]

I pause to think for like 5 seconds. Then i call /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
Beyond this hand, I think my point is that we mustn't forget why we make so much money playing this great game. In addition to our own genius, our opponents complete lack of rationale pads our BB/100. Don't give them so much credit, particularly when you have no reads. Without reads you can only guess that they're an average online player, an illogical idiot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow you have a big ego! /images/graemlins/smile.gif
this "Im superior" crap has a way of coming back to haunt people,
if a guy caps from the sb and then bets into the flop causing QQ to fold (which im amazed that some people are advising on this site) with a lesser hand,then there is only one idiot in that scenario

[Wynton]

Wow, just when I think I'm playing everything too passive, I find a situation like this.

First of all, I agree with those who say that sb could have a wide range of hands. In the past, my default play would have been to call the flop, and maybe even check/call down.

Second, I am very reassured by those who say that folding this hand will not result in people bluffing excessively, as that has been my fear too, and one which would make me much more likely to raise the flop.

Still, my answer - before reading everyone else's comments -- would have been to raise the flop. Then if the sb leads the turn, I'd feel pretty safe in assuming I'm beat.

I'm just experimenting with the concept of trying to show more aggression on the flop, in the hope of saving a bet on a later street. Not sure whether this works here, though.

[jquattro]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow you have a big ego!
this "Im superior" crap has a way of coming back to haunt people,
if a guy caps from the sb and then bets into the flop causing QQ to fold (which im amazed that some people are advising on this site) with a lesser hand,then there is only one idiot in that scenario

[/ QUOTE ]

Far from a big ego my friend. It's of no coincidence that a top player will have a higher bb/100 playing fish than against other top players. Its caused by fish having no clue what they're doing. If you read my whole post, you'll notice that I said no to a fold, so I hope that last sentence is directed to other posters.

[sammy_g]

My standard line without a read is to raise the flop, bet the turn, and take the free showdown. If I get check-raised on the turn, I bail unless I picked up a draw.

I expect to lose more often than I win, but I expect to win often enough that this line is profitable.