View Full Version : 20 pre-flop decisions from the BB
spamuell
04-24-2005, 09:56 AM
These are all from Stars 3/6 6-max where I'm in the BB and 6-handed unless stated otherwise. I fold far too much in the BB but I don't know which hands I should be playing, it's difficult to get away from the full ring mentality about dominated hands in the BB. It's especially difficult without reads because I'm not entirely sure what kind of hands people actually raise in the early positions.
1. A3o, CO (reasonable player) opens, SB cold-calls, I fold.
2. KJo 4-handed, UTG opens, Button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
3. KJo, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
4. Same as 3 but with KTo.
5. K9o, button opens, I fold.
6. K7o, button opens, I fold.
7. QJo, CO opens, button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
8. QTo, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
9. J9o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
10. J7s, CO opens, folded to me and I call.
11. T7o, SB opens, I call.
12. T6o, SB opens, I fold.
13. 98o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
14. Same as 13 but with 87o.
15. Same was 14 but with 76o.
16. A8o, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
17. K6s, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
18. ATo, CO opens, folded to me to and I 3-bet.
19. ATo, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
20. 33, UTG opens, folded to me and I call.
Please be harsh, it's the only thing that makes me change. Thanks for your help.
1. A3o, CO (reasonable player) opens, SB cold-calls, I fold.
-fine.
2. KJo 4-handed, UTG opens, Button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
-This is a very easy call 4-handed.
3. KJo, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
-Very player dependant, but I wouldnt fold unless he is very passive.
4. Same as 3 but with KTo.
-This is closer, Vehn said fold, Peter rus said play in an old thread.
5. K9o, button opens, I fold.
It´s closer to a 3bet than a fold. People open alot on the button and they should.
6. K7o, button opens, I fold.
Not sure about this one, probably fold against an unknown, but it seem close.
7. QJo, CO opens, button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
Call.
8. QTo, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
-call.
9. J9o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
-close?
10. J7s, CO opens, folded to me and I call.
-I´d probably fold, but it seems close.
11. T7o, SB opens, I call.
-fine
12. T6o, SB opens, I fold.
I can go either way on this, depending on the player. I´d play against an aggro player.
13. 98o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
-fine.
14. Same as 13 but with 87o.
15. Same was 14 but with 76o.
16. A8o, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
probably fine.
17. K6s, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
I´d fold mostly.
18. ATo, CO opens, folded to me to and I 3-bet.
fine, you have the best hand.
19. ATo, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
fine.
20. 33, UTG opens, folded to me and I call.
if you will get lots of action when you hit a set or he will be predicable then fine, but it isnt a great hand out of position.
imported_azalin
04-24-2005, 10:28 AM
I am far from expert but this is what i think:
1)fold
2)call
3)call
4)call
5)call (depends on the button..i raise sometimes and sometimes i fold)
6)=>5
7)call
8)call
9=>12 i fold
13=>15 fold
16)call
17)call
18)3bet
19)call
20)fold
Most of these playes are very player dependand though (IMO) and i dont think there is a clear cut answer. It would be nice to hear opinions from more experienced players though.
imported_azalin
04-24-2005, 10:36 AM
I posted without seeing Trixx's post. Glad i am in the right way.
tolbiny
04-24-2005, 10:38 AM
1. Folding A3o is fine here, though when you feel your post flop play is stronger it can become playable.
2. KJ- Call this stuff. KJ is a solid hand 4 handed. I Open raise in all positions with KJ in 6handed < games.
3. Same as above
4. same as above
5. call,
6. can go either way.
7. I don't like where this is going- easy call.
8. call/occasionally reraise
9. call/fold
10. call
11. fold
12. fold
13. call
14. call
15. fold/call
16. call
17. call/fld
18. call/three bet
19. call/ three bet
20. call
spamuell
04-24-2005, 11:54 AM
Thanks for your replies, I'm still trying to register all of this, it's hard to stop thinking of hands like QJo against a raise as a trouble hand.
Tolbiny, how can you say:
[ QUOTE ]
11. T7o, SB opens, I call
fold
[/ QUOTE ]
and also
[ QUOTE ]
13. 98o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
call
14. Same as 13 but with 87o.
call
[/ QUOTE ]
Surely the SB is going to have a wider range of hands that he'll open than the CO will? Furthermore, my hand is slightly better against the SB than the CO. Even more importantly, I have position against the SB and am OOP against the CO.
This seems inconsistent to me. I guess there's an extra part of a small bet in the pot (the small blind), are you saying this makes up for it? It doesn't to me that getting 2.4:1 as opposed to 2:1 would make up for all the other factors but I guess this is tough to measure.
I call #1-8, sometimes 9& 10.
I fold 11 &12, but would prolly call with T80
Sometimes call 13.
Occassionally call 14.
15 Fold
16, 17 call
18 3bet usually
19 call
20 fold. if there was a coldcaller in there, i would then call.
tolbiny
04-24-2005, 12:23 PM
I think that 98o is slightly better in this position than T7o. YOu loose ammost nothing in the high card strength department- and the straight outs make up for it and then a little bit more (imo).
I find that a lot of people will play the sb more, not less, passively that the button/c/o as many players will choose to just complete instead of raiseing. Combination of being out of position and just already having money in there. The c/o and button raisers often have a wider range of opening hands, making it an easier call.
The determining factor forme though is that 87 and 98 just make more strong hands (straights) hands that you can try to get three bets in on a street with. Their implied odds are better than hands like T7o.
cartman
04-25-2005, 10:30 AM
I have spent a lot of time with poker tracker tweaking my big blind standards. These may be off-base and I'm certain that I should adjust for the number of players in the pot, the raiser's standard's etc., but for what it's worth, I call or reraise with the following hands and fold the rest when facing a raise in the BB (unless the raise comes from the sm blind when everyone folds to him, then I don't know what to do):
any two offsuit T+, any two suited 5+, any pair.
By the way, how should this change when the raise comes from the sm blind when folded around to him?
Thanks,
Cartman
Lost Wages
04-25-2005, 10:48 AM
By the way, how should this change when the raise comes from the sm blind when folded around to him?
Be more inclined to defend against the SB, you have position.
Lost Wages
Lost Wages
04-25-2005, 10:50 AM
In the heads-up situations, it looks like you may be overvaluing suitedness and undervaluing high card strength.
Lost Wages
spamuell
04-25-2005, 10:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
In the heads-up situations, it looks like you may be overvaluing suitedness and undervaluing high card strength.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, thanks, I think you're right.
I think the reason for this is really because I have learnt to fear domination so much in the BB, which causes me to fold hands like KJo and call with hands like T7s. But when in 6-max players will raise with a much wider range of hands, KJo is much more likely to dominate and T7s to be dominated, if someone is raising something like KTo or JTs. I just need to properly register this.
BottlesOf
04-25-2005, 11:10 AM
The thing is you don't need to fear domination as much a) in multiway pots (like your KJo ex.) or even HU b/c they will be opening with so much less in the 6max game. It definitely takes an adjustment, but you'll get more comfortable in what may seem like bad situations (but really aren't) in time.
Bluffoon
04-25-2005, 11:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
These are all from Stars 3/6 6-max where I'm in the BB and 6-handed unless stated otherwise. I fold far too much in the BB but I don't know which hands I should be playing, it's difficult to get away from the full ring mentality about dominated hands in the BB. It's especially difficult without reads because I'm not entirely sure what kind of hands people actually raise in the early positions.
1. A3o, CO (reasonable player) opens, SB cold-calls, I fold.
2. KJo 4-handed, UTG opens, Button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
3. KJo, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
4. Same as 3 but with KTo.
5. K9o, button opens, I fold.
6. K7o, button opens, I fold.
7. QJo, CO opens, button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
8. QTo, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
9. J9o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
10. J7s, CO opens, folded to me and I call.
11. T7o, SB opens, I call.
12. T6o, SB opens, I fold.
13. 98o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
14. Same as 13 but with 87o.
15. Same was 14 but with 76o.
16. A8o, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
17. K6s, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
18. ATo, CO opens, folded to me to and I 3-bet.
19. ATo, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
20. 33, UTG opens, folded to me and I call.
Please be harsh, it's the only thing that makes me change. Thanks for your help.
[/ QUOTE ]
When I first started playing short I felt the same way as you.
When I looked for hands to add I started with the broadways and once I felt comfortable defending with those I started to add some suited and connected hands and one gappers. Ease into it adding weaker hands as you gain confidence and skill.
Thanks for posting this thread spamuell - I'm having the same problems adjusting to 6max. It's nice to see some good replies here. I probably would have done the same thing as you in all these spots - but it's nice to get some direction in more marginal situations.
MrWookie47
04-25-2005, 12:19 PM
This has been a great thread for me, as I'm just learning the ways of 1/2 6max, and I can tell I'm not defending enough.
krishanleong
04-25-2005, 12:22 PM
1. A3o, CO (reasonable player) opens, SB cold-calls, I fold.
I fold
2. KJo 4-handed, UTG opens, Button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
Easy call.
3. KJo, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
I call
4. Same as 3 but with KTo.
I call.
5. K9o, button opens, I fold.
Easy call
6. K7o, button opens, I fold.
I call
7. QJo, CO opens, button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
I call
8. QTo, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
I fold
9. J9o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
fold
10. J7s, CO opens, folded to me and I call.
Call
11. T7o, SB opens, I call.
Easy Call
12. T6o, SB opens, I fold.
Easy call
13. 98o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
fold
14. Same as 13 but with 87o.
fold
15. Same was 14 but with 76o.
fold
16. A8o, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
fold
17. K6s, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
fold
18. ATo, CO opens, folded to me to and I 3-bet.
raise
19. ATo, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
tough, dunno
20. 33, UTG opens, folded to me and I call.
easy call
Please be harsh, it's the only thing that makes me change. Thanks for your help.
[/ QUOTE ]
Girchuck
04-25-2005, 12:38 PM
I defend my BB a lot, probably too much, so take this with an idea to play tighter
1. A3o, CO (reasonable player) opens, SB cold-calls, I fold.
I call often here
2. KJo 4-handed, UTG opens, Button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
I call
3. KJo, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
I call
4. Same as 3 but with KTo.
I call
5. K9o, button opens, I fold.
I call
6. K7o, button opens, I fold.
I fold often here.
7. QJo, CO opens, button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
I call
8. QTo, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
I call
9. J9o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
I call
10. J7s, CO opens, folded to me and I call.
I call
11. T7o, SB opens, I call.
I call
12. T6o, SB opens, I fold.
I fold often here
13. 98o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
I call
14. Same as 13 but with 87o.
I call
15. Same was 14 but with 76o.
I call
16. A8o, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
I call
17. K6s, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
I call
18. ATo, CO opens, folded to me to and I 3-bet.
I 3-bet or call
19. ATo, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
I call
20. 33, UTG opens, folded to me and I call.
I call or 3-bet.
Nate tha' Great
04-25-2005, 01:17 PM
1. A3o, CO (reasonable player) opens, SB cold-calls, I fold.
In practice, I'll usually call any Ax against a CO or Button raise. I don't know that it's profitable, though.
2. KJo 4-handed, UTG opens, Button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
I'd call.
3. KJo, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
I'd call. This is a pretty bad fold.
4. Same as 3 but with KTo.
Call.
5. K9o, button opens, I fold.
Bad fold. I'd call, occasionally 3-betting.
6. K7o, button opens, I fold.
Close. I probably fold somewhat more often.
7. QJo, CO opens, button cold-calls, SB cold-calls, I fold.
Easy call.
8. QTo, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
Easy call.
9. J9o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
Pretty easy call.
10. J7s, CO opens, folded to me and I call.
Ironically, I'd probably fold. Connectedness is more important than suitedness in heads up pots.
11. T7o, SB opens, I call.
Yeah.
12. T6o, SB opens, I fold.
Fine.
13. 98o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
I'd call.
14. Same as 13 but with 87o.
I'd call.
15. Same was 14 but with 76o.
I'd call.
16. A8o, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
I'd call.
17. K6s, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
Okay.
18. ATo, CO opens, folded to me to and I 3-bet.
Fine.
19. ATo, MP opens, folded to me and I call.
Fine.
20. 33, UTG opens, folded to me and I call.
Easy.
You're folding too much.
mistrpug
04-25-2005, 04:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Connectedness is more important than suitedness in heads up pots.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nate, can you explain this please? I understand why suitedness becomes less important compared to high card strength but not why connectedness becomes more important than suitedness.
Nate tha' Great
04-25-2005, 04:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Connectedness is more important than suitedness in heads up pots.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nate, can you explain this please? I understand why suitedness becomes less important compared to high card strength but not why connectedness becomes more important than suitedness.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is easier to make a straight with a hand like 98o than it is to make than a flush with a hand like J4s.
Now, in multiway pots, you prefer a suited hand to a connected hand in spite of that, because it is fairly easy to make a straight and lose to a flush, or perhaps a higher straight.
In heads-up pots, however, making a straight will almost always give you the best hand.
billyjex
04-25-2005, 04:33 PM
Nate,
I find it interesting that you fold more often than not w/ K7o to a button raise but say calling is fine w/ K6s to an MP raise. I'm sure they're both close decisions but it would seem to me that calling w/ K7 is much easier than w/ K6s because the button's range of hands is much wider.
I was suprised so many people have said fold w/ 89o/78o/67o as well. I generally call with these to CO/Button raises.
TomBrooks
04-25-2005, 08:47 PM
I don't have time to answer the quiz now, but I will later. For now, I would like to ask the responders to include a copy of the problem with their answer so one doesn't have to scroll back and forth to match the answer to the problem. Thanks.
ALL1N
04-25-2005, 11:48 PM
I call all except:
A3o, CO (reasonable player) opens, SB cold-calls, I fold.
76o, CO opens, folded to me and I fold.
A8o, MP opens, folded to me and I fold.
stripsqueez
04-26-2005, 12:47 AM
1 6 11 14 and 15 are probably the only ones that fall within the most common choice for me - i like defending with middle ranked cards - not so much with crappy kings and aces
when its 3 way or more you cant make big mistakes calling a single raise in the BB if you know whats going on post flop
stripsqueez - chickenhawk
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