help! PP 200k ITM hands [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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barycentric

04-24-2005, 07:03 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t3000 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t54400)
Button (t60321)
Hero (t113425)
BB (t57027)
UTG (t59430)
UTG+1 (t45192)
MP1 (t77204)
MP2 (t20128)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, CO raises to t6500, Button calls t6500, Hero raises to t20000, 1 fold, CO folds, Button calls t13500.

Flop: (t49500) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t49500) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t12500, Button calls t12500.

River: (t74500) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t10000, Button raises to t24100, Hero raises to t27821, Button calls t3721.

Final Pot: t130142

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Jc (two pair, aces and kings).
Button has Qc Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Button wins t130142. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t3000 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 (t47900)
MP2 (t134642)
Hero (t53104)
Button (t52527)
SB (t56430)
BB (t45192)
UTG (t77204)
UTG+1 (t20128)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises to t15000, 2 folds, BB raises to t45192, Hero calls t30192.

Flop: (t91884) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

Turn: (t91884) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

River: (t91884) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t91884

Results in white below: 
BB has Qd Ac (one pair, queens).
Hero has 9c 9d (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins t91884.

barycentric

04-24-2005, 07:19 AM

Context: ~43 players left. Average stack 39k. I am chip leader. CO, Button and I have been raising furiously building our stacks. On hand 1, I smelled weakness in the two players already in the pot, and I want to chase away their marginal hands. This is the 3rd time I've reraised steal attempts in the last few circuits, so that could contribute to a looser call. On the flop, I decided that I had the best hand, and would try to get my opponent all-in. I just couldn't reason out which hands he would make 2 flat calls that contain a king. Most likely I thought he had an underpair. This in part explains the strange postflop play, although on the river should I read that I'm beat by that raise?

context hand 2: Just a couple of hands after hand 1. This opponent has been pretty loose, but just from 20 hands at the table, hard to pin down his repush range. If I fold, I'm slightly below average stack. If I win, I'm 2nd highest stack in the tourney. If I lose, I'm down to 2.5BB. So I guess this begs the question, is it twice as likely to make the final table with 92k than it is with 38k (average, with 40+ players left)? The 2:1 pot odds is tempting.

Lurshy

04-24-2005, 07:38 AM

Not certain what you are looking for here.

1st hand you overplayed your 2nd best hand. 2nd hand, you lost a race where you started out ahead.

You could've gotten away from either hand, but there is justification for your actions in both cases.

barycentric

04-24-2005, 07:43 AM

So given that my goal here is to make the final table and hopefully a stack to realistically win, if and how should I play these hands differently?

rockythecat99

04-24-2005, 10:47 AM

I am not that great but i let the second hand go unless I have a clear read on BB. I would also probably raise a little less as this looks like a clear steal and BB might push with any two if you have been bullying the table then you are dealt with a tough decision like you had.

Blackjack

04-24-2005, 11:26 AM

The first hand.. you have to have the discipline to release to that minraise. What hands could he have that you possibly beat? I can't think of any.

The second hand.. you have to think of what you are trying to accomplish with this raise. Do you want to thin the field? Steal the blinds and have a hand to face up to resistance?

The call is a no brainer due to pot odds but you want to avoid getting yourself into situations like this in the first place. In a situation like that one, my estimates are that you are behind dominated about 20%, 10% you dominate him, and 70% you are racing.

Blackjack

04-24-2005, 11:29 AM

Raising 5x the BB is also a bit much. It's going to insure that only better hands call or push over you - meaning that you lose even more chips.

Try anywhere from 10k-12k for the raise in the second hand.

CardSharpCook

04-24-2005, 11:58 AM

I don't like the raise PF in hand one. You are pretty much garuanteed a call by the button with it likely that he will go AI overtop. Also, you make throwing chips at the pot less likely to take it down with a bet like this. Also, with a hand like AJ, you aren't gonna outkick anyone, so you might as well be trying to convince him that you don't have an ace so that he is encouraged to bet into you, or call down with a 2nd best hand.

As it turned out, you were basically bluffing into a scary board - doesn't really make sense given the strength of your holding. Again, the large pot created by your PF raise makes this an even larger pot later as you have to keep throwing more and more chips into the pot. As a better player, in general you should want to both keep pots small, and encourage people to come along with second best hands. I feel you failed in both of these aspects here.

Also, why the final reraise at the end? It is just a few thousand chips, but why do it? You've got to be reasonably afraid of a king here.

CSC

nsj

04-24-2005, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So given that my goal here is to make the final table and hopefully a stack to realistically win, if and how should I play these hands differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 1, I think it's obvious with the flop check behind and the turn call that button is slowplaying something.

After the 12500 call, I shut down with AJ, check and maybe considering folding a value bet.

Hand 2, I raise to 9k, and then decide what to do when he re-raises. Tough to say without a read.

CardSharpCook

04-24-2005, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So given that my goal here is to make the final table and hopefully a stack to realistically win, if and how should I play these hands differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 1, I think it's obvious with the flop check behind and the turn call that button is slowplaying something.

After the 12500 call, I shut down with AJ, check and maybe considering folding a value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting your opponent on the nuts just because he checks the flop (after you raised PF) and then calls a turn bet, doesn't make sense to me. This could easily be a mid PP 77-QQ that he feels MAY be good, so he wants to see it for cheap. It could also be another ace that is also scared of a king. Value-betting this river may be the right play given our actions earlier in the hand.

To the poster, you should have cut off the HH after your bet on the river. Giving us both the results AND the villian's actions after your River bet taints our responses. (seems obvious based on the responses here).

CSC

Roman

04-24-2005, 01:57 PM

Hand 1: You played it terribly... you can not build a huge pot like this with ace high.
Hand 2: I wouldnt play it exactly the same, but looks fine.

nolanfan34

04-24-2005, 03:11 PM

I'll echo some of the others, and say that I don't like the PF raise in hand #1. If you were on the button, I'd like it more, but really you don't want to be out of position with that hand.

I think if you're going to play it PF, you should have raised more to just take it down right there. There's enough money in the pot after your raise that both players are getting reasonable odds on their hands to see a flop. And if someone pushes, you're really not going to like calling there.

2005

04-24-2005, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, why the final reraise at the end? It is just a few thousand chips, but why do it? You've got to be reasonably afraid of a king here.

CSC

[/ QUOTE ]

Blackjack

04-24-2005, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: You played it terribly... you can not build a huge pot like this with ace high.
Hand 2: I wouldnt play it exactly the same, but looks fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had 2 pair... Aces up
AJ

KKA board....

Blackjack

barycentric

04-24-2005, 04:04 PM

Yeah I shouldn't have posted results to the first hand. Although it woudld be obvious from the stack sizes in the second hand that I lost hand 1.

In hand 1, both players in front of me have been extremely loose. The c/o raise was his standard size, and button would raise (as seen by previous play) with any big hand. So I was confident 80-90% of the time they both had marginal hands. Perhaps AJ was too "good" of a hand here where I am making a play that can be made with any two cards. Knowing they only have a monster 10-20% of the time, does reraising bigger help chase them away, or does it pot commit too much then to a repush in the rare cases?

CardSharpCook

04-24-2005, 04:16 PM

Well, that's the problem, a reraise AI is very likely at this point and you don't want that. I am OK with an AI resteal on your part, but the raise you put in doesn't make much sense - you won't fold out the button with this raise.

CSC

barycentric

04-24-2005, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, that's the problem, a reraise AI is very likely at this point and you don't want that. I am OK with an AI resteal on your part, but the raise you put in doesn't make much sense - you won't fold out the button with this raise.

CSC

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your comments. I agree with your assessment. I underestimated button's pot-odds to call, even though it's a quarter of his stack. On that board I'm either way ahead or way behind, so underestimation led me to believe that I'm way ahead. It's hard to get away from that flop in any case, though I see now that river screams I'm beat.