52o -- I folded BPNK to a turn checkraise getting 17:1

[Nick C]

I'd been at the table for about 30 hands, and the attendance was so irregular that I couldn't keep track. People were coming and going, coming and going. What I did know was that Button and MP2 were very loose. Unfortunately, UTG+1 was new, and I had no real read on him, although that's the read I wanted most during this hand.

The preflop, flop, and turn action should give you a good enough idea of what the table as a whole was like.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero folds.

What do you think?

[KCheng]

Looks like a nice table, but why call the flop?

[toss]

He was getting 12:1 on his call.

[KCheng]

[ QUOTE ]
He was getting 12:1 on his call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh...I need to pay more attention to the pot size. What does BPNK mean BTW?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
What does BPNK mean BTW?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom pair, no kicker.

[mute]

It does seem like your two pair outs are no longer good and 2h might not be good either. I like the fold.

[TStoneMBD]

its very close, but i say its worth a call. if you catch your two on the river, a checkraise will net you more than enough implied odds to make your call correct. a 5 will make a calldown profitable despite being bad more often than not. one of your twos completes a flush, which is a problem, but not that big of a problem.

you should assume that a 5 on the river will win the pot for you 1/3 times, so you can estimate about 3 outs to win the hand, which is enough to call.

[Chewbacca]

I would have folded this on the flop too.

Do you suggest calling because of 12:1 and the fact that he closes the betting? I.e. would you be more inclined to fold if there were 1 or 2 more to act behind him you?

Also, don't you think there is a pretty good chance he'll lose anyway if he hits his two pair or possibly even with trips? 12:1 or not, shouldn't you just pass here?

[SA125]

I wouldn't mind folding the turn for 1 bet but, since you called, I'd call the raise because it closes the action.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind folding the turn for 1 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I wondered about that too, when I posted the hand.

During the hand, I was thinking that no one was really acting like they had a hand as good as two pair yet, and I was also thinking that my cards were so low that if I caught on the river, it was unlikely to improve anyone else to an even better hand at the same time. However, I was a little bit concerned that UTG+1 might checkraise. Also, with so many people in, it's possible I should have been more concerned about someone having a backdoor flush draw (with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or something) that improved on the turn. The possibility that making two pair on the river would make a wheel for someone else also can't be completely ruled out. And at such a loose table, I'm not sure I should rule out hands like Q5s or even Q5o, either.

Anyway, I'm not sure, but I think the fact that I have the flop bettor left to act behind me when the action first gets back to me on the turn may swing the decision to a fold.

I haven't been playing much B&amp;M 3/6 lately, so I'm kind of out of practice, when it comes to handling very multiway turns like this one when I have a weak draw.

[Nick C]

I called on the flop because I figured that any card that improved me on the turn would quite likely put me in the lead. I could of course catch trips or two pair and get outdrawn on the river, but I decided to take my chances, getting 12:1.

I didn't anticipate calling again after failing to improve, but I also didn't anticipate the turn action behind me going check, bet, call, call, call.

When UTG+1 checkraised, though, I decided he quite likely had two pair or better, and I decided to give up. The chances that I had 0-2 outs versus the field seemed too high to me, at the time.

However, while I don't know how much the hands that got folded on the river cut into my outs, based on the hands that went to showdown, I was drawing live:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero folds.

River: (17.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

Results:
UTG+1 has Jc Tc (straight, king high).
CO has 6d Qs (one pair, queens).
Button has Qd 8s (one pair, queens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 20.50 BB.

Thanks for the responses.

[purnell]

I think this fold is OK vs. an unknown. You have some outs, and baybe you have pot odds IF you aren't drawing dead. But against an unknown, I fold here.