What do you make of this 3-bet?

[Garland]

No particular read on my opponent...

What do you make of this mini 3-bet? What do you put him on?

Garland

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($200)
UTG+1 ($406.20)
MP1 ($105.80)
MP2 ($572.20)
MP3 ($1044.40)
CO ($369.70)
Garland ($392)
SB ($94.90)
BB ($265.20)

Preflop: Garland is Button with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $4.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $4, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $17</font>, Garland calls $17, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls $13, MP3 calls $13.

Flop: ($78) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $23</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $66</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $109</font>...

[-Skeme-]

JJ, QQ, KK &amp; AA are the only hands I see doing this. Maybe AKd, but I doubt it.

[-Skeme-]

I think the most likely range of hands are AA, KK and JJ. I think JJ is least likely. Given the range of hands and you being ahead of 2/3 of them, I'd push it back before you call and a diamond comes and kills your action.

[piratemike]

Can you explain why JJ is less likely than AA or KK here?

[kevin017]

someone with JJ, would possibly just check/call, but if they bet would almost certainly just call after getting reraised. They could be re-raising because they're scared of the flush draw, but with you raising like that i doubt they're thinking you're on a flush draw.

I'm thinking this is aa/kk/qq who is saying, if you call or raise me i'm check/folding. if you fold obviously i'm good. JJ's not out of the question just not as likely.

oh, and i'm pushing back in this situation.

[piratemike]

I see what you're saying, but I guess where I'm coming from if I'm holding trip jacks is that I'm assuming you're holding AA/KK/QQ. I'm not going to push too hard, but I want to keep building up this pot while I have the best of it, to see how long he'll draw to his two outer.

[kevin017]

put it in context. if you had jj, a couple people before you called, you raised, then they called again, are you putting them on aa/kk/qq?

[piratemike]

I could see someone calling a raise with QQ. Read dependent, of course. AA and KK, you're probably right there.

[kevin017]

i forgot garland did act for the first time after the raiser, so i think aa/kk are safely out, but qq is possible, but i think that calling here would get you so much more money most of the time than raising that i'm willing to chance the q coming. even if that q came, how certain can you really be someone has qq, i'd probably still push

[ThePortuguee]

Your play here is to push. There's a reasonable chance he has a set of jacks and you're drawing to your last seven, but I think that's a chance you have to take, I can't find a fold on this board given CO's possible holdings. This line is possible (though a little fishy) with AA-QQ, even possibly AKd, and I think it's possible enough to make folding out of the question, especially barring a read. This possibility isn't a new contribution to the thread. What I think needs to be pointed out, though, that hasn't yet been pointed out, is that you called his preflop raise hoping to flop a set and get it all in against an overpair, and I think that is exactly what you need to do. I think if you can't put your stack in the middle in this situation you have to reconsider playing small pairs for raises preflop. Yes, sometimes you're going to lose your stack to Jacks, but it happens, and I think more often you're getting paid off by AA with a diamond or something similar.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
What I think needs to be pointed out, though, that hasn't yet been pointed out, is that you called his preflop raise hoping to flop a set and get it all in against an overpair, and I think that is exactly what you need to do. I think if you can't put your stack in the middle in this situation you have to reconsider playing small pairs for raises preflop. Yes, sometimes you're going to lose your stack to Jacks

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes!! This is what I'm aiming for. Of course I'm calling hoping to hit a set to go in against an overpair. And that's exactly what I did. We got it all in.

But look at how it played out...he bet about the minimum without looking like a complete idiot, which looked fishy in itself. Then when I raised him a decent amount on the flop, he proceeded to reraise me again...the minimum possible. Every player I know and don't know, if they were going with the hand, they are pushing much harder than that with AA, KK, QQ or A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It just gave me a read that this guy is doing his darnest to not let me fold (but trying to build a pot while at it)! He literally had to have the set of JJs the way it played out, and if I encounter the same scenario and against a certain opponent I have a read on, I might actually find the fold!

When we finally did get it in on the flop...after seven bets, raises and the final call, I thought to myself "he has to have JJ". Then the case 7 flashed on the screen during the turn giving me the quad nuts to suck out.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Garland

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($200)
UTG+1 ($406.20)
MP1 ($105.80)
MP2 ($572.20)
MP3 ($1044.40)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($369.70)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Garland ($392)</font>
SB ($94.90)
BB ($265.20)

Preflop: Garland is Button with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $4.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $4, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $17</font>, Garland calls $17, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls $13, MP3 calls $13.

Flop: ($78) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $23</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $66</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $109</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $216</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $323</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $375 and all-in</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO calls $352.70 and is all-in</font>.

Turn: ($783.40) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: ($783.40) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $783.40

Results below:
CO has Js Jc (full house, jacks full of sevens).
Garland has 7c 7s (four of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: Garland wins $783.40.

[-Skeme-]

nh

[ThePortuguee]

Sucking out's better than making good reads anyway.

Yeah it's a bizarre and fishy line the villain took, and it does sort of scream "I want you in the pot." But on the other hand I've seen similar lines in similar situations with hands like AKd and AA, and while I agree that it's hard to put him on a hand other than JJ, here, I dont know if I could live with myself for laying down 77 in that situation without a sick read to go on.

[RubberDucky]

what other kind of flop were you hoping for?

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
what other kind of flop were you hoping for?

[/ QUOTE ]

One without an overset possible /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Seriously, look at the flop action on the results, and tell me something doesn't look seriously bizarre.

Garland

[ThePortuguee]

What about a board with two sevens?

Oh wait you turned that.

Oh well.

[RubberDucky]

what is your reasoning on the raise fest?

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
what other kind of flop were you hoping for?

[/ QUOTE ]

This ain't video poker. You have to think about more than just your own hand.

[RubberDucky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what other kind of flop were you hoping for?

[/ QUOTE ]

This ain't video poker. You have to think about more than just your own hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the insight