"I want to see that hand"

Let me start with thanks to CJ and also Pat and Bull, whose stud experience and play knowledge has helped improve my game enough to finally make the move up to $5-10. After thrashing the 2-4 game on Paradise, which is very similar in structure I finally felt confident enough to make the move and played my first 5-10 session Friday night at Mohegan. I had won about $100 playing 1-3 stud and 3-6 he, so I decided to give $5-10 stud a shot and quit if I lost that amount. Despite the fact that the dollar amounts made it difficult for me to play correctly (it's hard to adjust to raising to $20, rather than $8), I was up about $70 when this hand came up:

(6-6) 6 me
(x x) K tight grumpy player
(x x) 9h new player
(x x) Q competent passive player
Four other players, no cards of significance

I am first to act after a deuce brings it in,
I limp, king limps, 9 limps, queen completes
to $5, I make it $10, all call.

(6 6) 6 8
(xx) K 9
(xx) 9h 5d
(xx) Q 10

King checks, nine checks, queen bets, I raise,
king folds, 9 calls two cold(!), Q calls

(6-6) 6 8 4
(xx) 9h 5d 3h
(xx) Q 10 K (rainbow)

Checked to me, I bet both call

(6-6) 6
(xx) 9h 5d 3h 7s
(xx) Q 10 K Q

Paired door queen bets, I call, 9 calls

River, queens bet without looking at card
I catch an 8 to fill and call, 9 folds.

Queens turns up trip queens, then river card
pairs his jack in hole for a higher full house.

I'm about to muck, when the grumpy guy who folded a
king back on fourth asks to see my hand. I was
annoyed enough at losing that I just continued my
motion of tossing it into the muck, but pushed
it in (I was in the #1 seat) to make sure he couldn't
see it.

He went berserk, floor was called and gave me a
standard "don't do it again". I wasn't sure if a
player not in a hand could ask to see or not, so
I just said "okay" and we left it at that.

Anyhow, I later lost flush under flush and finished
down $70 for about 3.5 hours of $5-10, still up about
$35 overall on the night, and feeling like I will
definitely try $5-10 stud again.

[Achilles517]

Tough break, losing a wired hand can be very frustrating. As far as I know, you can muck your hand in that spot, I don't see why the grumpy guy called the floor. It could be he was having a bad night, when people are on tilt they get prety angry over little things like that.
I'm currently in Virginia (college), but play in Mohegan during the summer and on vacations. I've done pretty well at 1-5 and 3-6, and am looking to play 5-10 as well, bankroll is basically the only thing holding me back at this point. Maybe I'll run into you during Thanksgiving weekend.

[CJC]

Hey MRB,

The IWTSTH rule is the most annoyin rule in all of poker. Its intention is to protect against collusion. But is never used in that way.

The rule basically goes like this...

At the end... ANY CALLED hand can be requested to be seen by any player INVOLVED in the hand. Also if a hand is checked down, anyone who still has cards could be made to show them.

IT's a BS rule that I wish would be abandoned alltogether.

Congrats on your move up to 5-10.
Sounds like you played well.

CJ

The thing I wasn't sure of was whether only players who were in at the end could request to see a hand or whether others at the table could also ask. I realized while discussing this hand with my friend on the drive home the reason the grumpy guy was so pissed was that I got him to drop split kings when I raised on fourth and the king that fell on the queen hand on fifth would have fallen on him had he stayed, giving him trip kings.

I think I played okay. I made one mistake, not betting when a bet would probably have won on fifth, then having opponent pair door for trips on fifth (I folded my overpair to his bet and he showed me that he had made the trips). Fortunately, the pot was small (just $20 total).

one thing you will see is that with your experience it is easier to spot and take advantage of opponents mistakes. they make the same ones over and over, many of which are because they cant read a hand. i posted some of these errors in an earlier post.

good luck on the move up. try foxwoods for 5-10 the games are much better than at mohegan, or at least that is my experience.

Pat

I'd prefer to play at Foxwoods, but it is 1/2 hour further each way from me. Also, the low stakes he there is 2-4, not 3-6, and the rake is a killer. I think they even rake the 1-3 game worse at FW than at Mohegan. I will definitely be slanting my $5-10 play towards Friday evenings, when more tourists come in, and looking at games closely before sitting. The hotel at Mohegan has made the games better there, I think. In my game Friday there were at least two guests playing and both were there to gamble.

[Easy E]

if it was three-handed or more, only a participating player could ask to see your hand.

If heads up at the end, anyone playing at the table (even if not involved in the end of that hand) could request to see the other, mucking, hand.

Is this correct?

foxwoods is also further from me but believe me it is well worth the drive. trust me!

pat

Okay, I've actually resolved to take a half day every second or third Friday this winter and play poker, rather than play online. So maybe next time I'll try Foxwoods.

[Tom D]

I always thought that anyone who anted (sp?) could ask to see any hand at the showdown.

Tom D

[Michael Davis]

Mr B.,

I think you should almost always raise your "under" full house on the river here. You can fold if you are three bet by the original better, and the 9 will call enough times with a flush or some other junk (player dependent) to make this raise profitable. You will always get paid by trip Qs. This is close, but I don't think it falls into the situation where you are risking a reraise too much. Do not fear monsters.

Mike

[Easy E]

Michael,

I was 90% sure he had trip queens on sixth. He bet out there after just calling. He could already be full there. And he bet the river without looking at his card, suggesting he was full. As it turned out, he was not full until the river when he paired jacks. Raising in any situation when your opponent can KNOW they have you beat (or almost certainly know) seems to me to be a mistake. You really can't fold if he reraises -- players at these limits are capable of misjudging or just tilting. Sometimes you just have to call and hope to minimize the damage when there's a good chance you're beat.

[Michael Davis]

Mr. B,

In a heads up pot, I would raise every time with 8s full if I knew my opponent had trip Qs going in. If I didn't raise in your hand, it would be looking for an overcall from the other hand plus the small possibility that he would beat me with something like 9s full that made me just call. Heads up, I would raise every time even if I was going to pay off a reraise 100% of the time. I'm sure you're getting value on this.


Mike

I think this is a very marginal situation, especially as my opponent may be full on sixth street. When he bets into me on river, there's really no way I can raise. The key: he can be virtually certain he has me beat whereas I cannot (unless I river quads).

[Michael Davis]

If you thought there was a legitimate chance your opponent was full on sixth, why didn't you fold?

Mike

I didn't fold because there was around $100 in pot to me and I certainly did not feel he was definitely full. For $10, I called to see the river. I would have folded unimproved trips on river, but made a full myself. Again, in limit poker, the pots frequently get large enough to make folding the wrong play even when you are fairly sure you are beat. Calling for one or two more bets is a mistake, but folding incorrectly and losing 10 or more bets is a disaster. It's not always the greatest feeling, but I feel I played this hand right on every street.