should I sometimes push this flop?

[RED FACE]

Should I sometimes push this flop for what I assume is a tiny bit of fold value? I think definitely not. Fold preflop is not bad I think. Any thoughts on this standard hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($54.6)
UTG ($37.59)
UTG+1 ($93.55)
MP1 ($67.55)
MP2 ($49.5)
Hero ($51.95)
CO ($22.85)
Button ($52.49)
SB ($145.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $2</font>, Hero calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $1.50.

Flop: ($8.75) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $8.35</font>, Hero calls $8.35, Button folds, UTG folds.

Turn: ($25.45) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $13</font>, Hero calls $13.

River: ($51.45) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 calls $26.15 (All-In), Hero calls $26.15.

Final Pot: $103.75

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP2 has Kh Kc (two pair, kings and fours).
Hero has Kd Qd (two pair, queens and fours).
Outcome: MP2 wins $103.75. </font>

[meleader2]

i'd fold it on the turn if the flush didn't hit...you could very easily be up against AQ

how was MP2 playing?

[-Skeme-]

Don't call preflop raises with KQ.

[RED FACE]

I put him on an OP so figured I had 11 outs so needed 3.5:1 and was getting 2:1 on the flop. Is implying another $12 here to justify my call totally out of line and very loose?

If he had AA then I had 3 more outs.

[-Skeme-]

Fold preflop.

[RED FACE]

Okay, I agree. Fold preflop and I really should've folded on the river(but with weekend play you just never know, it seems).

Flop and turn play are standard fine, right? Hard to fold on the flop and can't fold on the turn, right?

If I've decided I can't fold that flop should I ever push it for fold value? AQ would certainly fold but AA and KK would find it hard to put me on a set because a set wouldn't play that way. Look at it like this:
his flop bet puts 16 in the pot
I will at least call so that would make the pot 24
I have 42 left and with 2 cards to come with 11 outs I'm a 1.4:1 dog so on the additional $42 raise I need to make $60 which I would. Is this crazy or standard?

thanks

[theredpill5]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I agree. Fold preflop and I really should've folded on the river(but with weekend play you just never know, it seems).

[/ QUOTE ]

You are thinking about this hand all wrong. Think long term. How much money are you really going to make with KQ over the long run? Over the long run, calling raises with KQ is a break even situation in low stakes hold'em at best and is certainly - EV in higher stakes. Suppose this guy was raising with Q J and you made the wrong fold, no big deal. You haven't lost that much EV. On the other hand, calling the raise, calling the flop, calling the turn, calling or folding on the river when your flush misses is a lot of $$$$ .

You really need to decide preflop whether you like your hand. Then when you are on the flop, make another decision whether you like your hand. Preflop and flop are the best places to decide to fold since you haven't lost that much. Folding on the turn and river are costly because you have already invested so much money.

You shouldn't be pushing all-in with a flush draw. It's only 9 outs. Only consider pushing with a 15 outer or more. And then you could be up against a set and only have 9 .

[AncientPC]

Raise the flop, check behind turn (or fire a second barrel if you can push him off).

[ QUOTE ]
Don't call preflop raises with KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guilty of these as well, but I'm sick of these replies.

[-Skeme-]

Why? That's really all there is to it. Fold preflop. Do not call preflop raises with KQ.

[AncientPC]

There are more playing styles that ABC nut peddling TAG.

Calling raises w/ KQs can be profitable.

[-Skeme-]

Yeah, because folding KQ to an opponent's raise means you're a super tight chump who only plays the nuts. Or possisly because it's likely to be dominated and a crappy hand.

[AncientPC]

I'm sure you only play non-dominated hands like pocket pairs or AK / AQ. Oh wait, AQ is dominated by AK so you should toss that too.

[-Skeme-]

I fold AQ to a raise from an unknown player, yes.

[theredpill5]

Ok lets suppose it is ok to call a raise with KQ. You are getting 2 to 1 odds on your flush draw the whole way. Basically, if I felt a little crazy and called the raise with KQ. I'd maybe call the flop bet if I thought I could get a lot of money out of him later but I'd definitely fold to the turn bet.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold AQ to a raise from an unknown player, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever works for you. Let's just agree to disagree.

However telling someone to fold pre-flop does not help the OP. It does not contribute to post-flop play discussion, and it most likely will not change the OP's playing style.

[-Skeme-]

Saying it doesn't help is asinine. It eliminates these tricky situations that more often than not trap you. Calling raises with KQ has been -EV for me and I've eliminated the play from my game. Telling him to do the same is in my mind very beneficial for his advancement a NL player.

[AncientPC]

Playing more hands in marginal situations helps makes a player better.

Loosening up also has a side effect of making your TPTK hands paid off more. Nut peddling doesn't get you paid off versus observant players.

[RED FACE]

"Raise the flop, check behind turn (or fire a second barrel if you can push him off)."

How much would you raise if not all in? a size raise may look more like trips but do you think it has more fold value than all-in? I don't see AA or KK folding to that and if opponent 3bets you are you not tied to the pot and must call anyway with your likely 11 outer?

The all in is also good as even tho this is low limit I can see AA or KK getting away on turn if a diamond or another Q fall tho they may not get away if I bet the minimum I'm required to fullfil the implied odds I was counting on on the flop call.

Also, because this was basically a full pot bet I don't see this as being a continuation bet so I decided he's not bluffing. His range is AQ, AA, KK or just maybe AX of diamonds.

[-Skeme-]

That's fine, I don't nut peddle. I'm fully capable of playing KQ, just not when a player to my direct right has raised.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
That's fine, I don't nut peddle. I'm fully capable of playing KQ, just not when a player to my direct right has raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you play KQs like suited connectors versus a raiser and a lot of limpers? If villain is a loose raiser I'll reraise to isolate.

You are behind AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ. That's 5 hands. If the villain will open raise from MP2 with a range of hands greater than this, there is a higher percentage you are at coinflip / ahead. You also have the advantage of being behind villain.

[Brad F.]

Does anyone else find the .50/1 at Party loose and sometimes flat out poor? I really think that if I had any respect for this player I couldn't put him on such a small range of hands. A 4x bb raise from mp2 could mean much more in my opinion, I see a lot of players making these kind of raises with even 8-9 suited. Unless you have a tight read on this player I don't think that folding K-Q suited in this position is something I will ever do.

Again, it's all preference, but against average .50/1 party opponent, I argue that calling here is positive ev every time.

Brad

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
"Raise the flop, check behind turn (or fire a second barrel if you can push him off)."

How much would you raise if not all in? a size raise may look more like trips but do you think it has more fold value than all-in? I don't see AA or KK folding to that and if opponent 3bets you are you not tied to the pot and must call anyway with your likely 11 outer?

The all in is also good as even tho this is low limit I can see AA or KK getting away on turn if a diamond or another Q fall tho they may not get away if I bet the minimum I'm required to fullfil the implied odds I was counting on on the flop call.

Also, because this was basically a full pot bet I don't see this as being a continuation bet so I decided he's not bluffing. His range is AQ, AA, KK or just maybe AX of diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's player dependent.

If you raise the flop and fire again when he checks to you on the turn he may fold TPTK or overpair. If he still calls and you make the flush on the river, you will get paid off.

Given how you played it, I would say at least $35 if you want any fold equity. However given your stack size you're just better going all-in.

People play sets and improved QJo the same way. If villain will call an all-in with TPTK or overpair, make a note. He'll pay you off next time.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
That's fine, I don't nut peddle. I'm fully capable of playing KQ, just not when a player to my direct right has raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of limpers? You mean one limper? That's not nearly enough. For me to call a raise with KQs, there needs to a solid read on the table and the original raiser.


[ QUOTE ]
You are behind AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ. That's 5 hands. If the villain will open raise from MP2 with a range of hands greater than this, then you are at coinflip / ahead. You also have the advantage of being behind villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm behind nearly everything that someone is raising. The problem with racing is that I don't know when they have JJ-22. Many people are capable of betting out strongly, first to act, with a small pocket pair that did not set. I'm not capable of knowing when they're doing this without a read.

I'm not a fan of KQs after a raiser and only one limper who will probably fold.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
Many people are capable of betting out strongly, first to act, with a small pocket pair that did not set. I'm not capable of knowing when they're doing this without a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

So get better at reading and pushing unknowns off hands rather than throwing away possibly dominated ones.

[-Skeme-]

Please explain how you randomly read an unknown player. You do realize your reads are made up of PAST HANDS that you've witnessed? If you know absolutely nothing on an opponent you can't just randomly make a read and decide what he has.

And pushing unknowns off of hands? Man, trying to push a .5/1 NL player off of a hand is not something I'm going to do unless I have a read that they will fold when they miss. Such a large portion of players down there will not fold.

[the machine]

y would you fold preflop? only scare card was the jack on the turn becuase it doesnt seem impossible to put someone on qj with a preflop raise. i might lay the hand down on the turn. might raise to see where i am on the flop but then you will be more pot stuck on the turn. the play wasnt bad though. tough one

[AncientPC]

I consider the random Party NL100 a 'tard until proven otherwise.

You put villain on a range of hands depending on his bet size and pattern, then determine if you have any fold equity.

I'm busy taking your money while you're still trying to "get a read on me." By the time you've gotten a read, I've already changed up my playing style.

[-Skeme-]

Lol. Whatever you say, buddy.

[AncientPC]

Like I said 5 posts ago, let's just agree to disagree.

[Bukem_]

Nobody here even considers pushing the flop?

What do you guys do on this hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($689.1)
Button ($600)
SB ($558.5)
BB ($262.2)
UTG ($318.8)
UTG+1 ($1000.95)
MP1 ($901.1)
Hero ($900.7)
MP3 ($581.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Button posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls $6, Hero calls $6, MP3 calls $6, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button (poster) calls $6, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($36) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $30</font>, MP3 folds, Button calls $30, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $150</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?

[the machine]

woah i am completely hungover and i didnt even notice that you had a flush draw too disregard what i said before. it is a great spot for a huge semi bluff with TP/BK and a big flush draw, may get kk to fold if he puts you on a set and if you get called you still have 11 outs 57% 43% post flop not too bad considering it was 91 9 preflop

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody here even considers pushing the flop?

What do you guys do on this hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($689.1)
Button ($600)
SB ($558.5)
BB ($262.2)
UTG ($318.8)
UTG+1 ($1000.95)
MP1 ($901.1)
Hero ($900.7)
MP3 ($581.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Button posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls $6, Hero calls $6, MP3 calls $6, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button (poster) calls $6, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($36) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $30</font>, MP3 folds, Button calls $30, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $150</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]</font></font></font></font>

Only if you want a call, there's no fold equity.

You'll most likely be up against a set:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=912705
pokenum -h kd qd - 5h 5s -- qc 3d 5d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Qc 5d 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Qd 295 29.80 695 70.20 0 0.00 0.298
5s 5h 695 70.20 295 29.80 0 0.00 0.702

[DaveduFresne]

There is nothing wrong with calling raises with KQ suited!. Apparently you guys are a bunch of weak tighties. The guy flops top pair second kicker with the second nut flush draw and you're talking about folding????

Reraising on the flop and possibly going all in on the flop would be a play no serious NL player could criticize. He might have the best hand right there, and even a pair of Aces are about 50/50 to him.

A lot depends on the player, whether to push or not. You don't want to bother pushing against a player you know probably has you beat, but won't lay down a high pp either.

If he can lay down big hands, then I say push. If not, reraise if you think you have the best hand for value, or call if you think you don't and you have pot odds and/or implied odds if you hit your flush.

But guys if KQ suited isn't a playable hand preflop, what is? I suppose you guys are the type all limping in with only pocket pairs and hoping to hit a set, and then expecting to get your overbets paid off.

I play with guys that play like you all the time, and guess what I never pay players like that off! (Not once I realize what you're doing). You got to make moves, bluff, semibluff, see more than 20% of flops etc, to expect to get paid off at NL.

Yes, there are still enough idiot fish online who will not notice you haven't played a significant pot in the last hour, and who will pay off top set with a pair of Kings with an Eight kicker, but if these are the only type of players paying you off you're going to be missing out on a lot of money.

I hope I didn't come off like an arrogant know it all, but I think you're not giving good advice to act like playing two suited Broadway cards is some kind of sin.

David

[DaveduFresne]

All in or fold, depending on your read. If you call here, make your flush, and don't get paid off, you're not playing the hand for maximum value.

Obviously, if you're fairly sure he's pushing a set, all in is a bad play. If you have a fair amount of doubt that his hand is that strong, than all in is the play.

Sorry just realized the BB is seriously shorstacked. He's probably making a move. Its a clear all in. If he's ahead you still got outs. Heck, against some players I might make that call on a rainbow board without a flushdraw for my KQ.

David

[jonnyUCB]

As long as youre not a fool who overplays a single pair to a PFR then theres no problem calling with QK.

my rules for doing so include not being headsup (either win a small pot or lose a big one), having position, the PFR is not ultra aggr- or LAG (hate to fold the best hand), suited is always better and we're always looking to flop more than a single pair.

Earlier today I called a min raise from utg player after two other callers. The flop came King high and he ended up showing down TKo - after I folded the flop to a rather large bet into a field. You wouldn't call with QK vs this clown?

[jonnyUCB]

Are you really suggesting the OP call with a raise from his right simply on the assumption we're dealing with a party donk? I think that advice is pretty thin.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you really suggesting the OP call with a raise from his right simply on the assumption we're dealing with a party donk? I think that advice is pretty thin.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's lovely how you condensed all my posts into a one liner.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with calling raises with KQ suited!. Apparently you guys are a bunch of weak tighties. The guy flops top pair second kicker with the second nut flush draw and you're talking about folding????

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not do this, my advice is that Hero shouldn't either. It's often dominated and Villain has shown strength by raising a hand which already has limpers in it. You also have half the table yet to act. This is not weak-tight at all. With no reads on an opponent who has shown strength by raising with someone already limping I am going to fold KQ every time. I don't remember me telling him to fold postflop.


[ QUOTE ]
A lot depends on the player, whether to push or not. You don't want to bother pushing against a player you know probably has you beat, but won't lay down a high pp either.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot depends on the player as to whether or not you call with KQ preflop. What happens when the flop is Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif? You dump it immediately?


[ QUOTE ]
If he can lay down big hands, then I say push. If not, reraise if you think you have the best hand for value, or call if you think you don't and you have pot odds and/or implied odds if you hit your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since this is a typical Party fish, which obviously guarantees your KQs is g00t, he won't fold. So if you know he's not folding his AA, or set of Queens or Kings, then what's wrong with calling his strong bet on the flop and seeing what develops on the turn?


[ QUOTE ]
But guys if KQ suited isn't a playable hand preflop, what is? I suppose you guys are the type all limping in with only pocket pairs and hoping to hit a set, and then expecting to get your overbets paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said you can't play KQs preflop. I'm saying I don't think it's a great idea to call a raise with. I raise or limp with my pocket pairs, depending on my position and the table. I don't know what the hell the overbets comment means.


[ QUOTE ]
You got to make moves, bluff, semibluff, see more than 20% of flops etc, to expect to get paid off at NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.


[ QUOTE ]
my rules for doing so include not being headsup

[/ QUOTE ]

Which we very well could've been.


[ QUOTE ]
Earlier today I called a min raise from utg player after two other callers. The flop came King high and he ended up showing down TKo - after I folded the flop to a rather large bet into a field. You wouldn't call with QK vs this clown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The reason for this is because I have a read on the player. That read being he'll open min-raise KTo from UTG and has a wide range of raising hands. Without a read against a player who's showing strength, I'm mucking KQs preflop.

[kevin017]

i think calling here with KQs is a so-so move. if you can get away from it at all the right times and make it payoff when you hit big, i think you can probably make it +EV, but only marginally. i'm probably calling preflop, calling flop, calling turn. imo i'd be considering queens and kings outs also, so i'd be calling until the river. calling that river bet is just nuts though.

[ThePortuguee]

Skeme, I generally agree with your analysis on your posts but I have to disagree with you about blanketing KQs into a generally unplayable hand for a raise preflop. Hero in this situation has position and a hand with the potential to play well in multi way pots. I'm 100% in agreement with you about the dangers of the hand due to the liklihood of being dominated, but would you agree that the range of hands your random average party .25/.5 player rasises with generally include more than just AQ, AK, KK, QQ, AA?

And if you would agree with that, you really dont' think that solid and smart postflop play, ie, the ability to get away from top pair against a strong preflop raiser, would allow you to play KQs profitably?

My objection to letting the hand go is that it makes second-nut flushes and nut-flushes, and that it's two-pair and straight value are likely to get paid off hard by hands that pair the cards making KQ's straight or two pair. Additionally, and especially with position, you can raise a follow up bet moderately with top pair, and expect to get called by JJ, TT, and even 99 with some frequency (this is true from experience). You then get to a relatively easy showdown with the best hand, and might even get a value bet paid off on the river if the OOP preflop raiser checks both 4th and 5th.

I;ve read a lot of your posts and you seem to have a tighter style than mine. I like to take a lot of flops, and I'm reasonably confident in my postflop play to get away from a Q-high board a lot of hte times that I'm behind with a hand like KQs. Do you really think that it would benefit all playing styles to make a habit of just folding KQs to a 4BB raise?

[-Skeme-]

I never said it's always an unplayable hand. I'm saying when an opponent who you know nothing about raises with limpers already in the pot, you give him respect and fold KQ. I don't know about the range of hands on Party, I only play on Stars. If you have a read about the range of hands they raise with, which includes crap like K9-KJ, then I'd be more inclined to call.


[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think that it would benefit all playing styles to make a habit of just folding KQs to a 4BB raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

To an unknown player who's showing a good deal of strength, yes. Look at this hand. You flopped second nut flush draw, top pair, second best kicker and look what happened.. He lost a $100 pot with it. I don't know if anybody else can get away from this hand, but I do know that apparently he can't. The situation could've been avoided by folding preflop. The situation of course being in a dominated position.


[ QUOTE ]
Hero in this situation has position and a hand with the potential to play well in multi way pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this hand should fare well in multiway pots. The thing is, this isn't a multiway pot. You have one person in the pot ahead of you, who might fold. That's it. If you were in the BB and UTG raised it to $2 and everbody called then I would reccommend calling here. That's a multiway pot. Unless you have a good read on the table, which is that it's extremely loose-passive and 90% of the table is taking flops, than I'd fold it in this position.

[ThePortuguee]

Fair enough. Sometimes i'm laying it down, other times I'm not.

Incidentally I find the stars game to be a little stronger than party's.

[-Skeme-]

According to general word Stars has the toughest games. I love the interface and software. Everything else is hard to pay attention to.

[Rastapopoulos]

what did you do Bukem_?