AQs flop decision

[DavidC]

2+2 table, but at this point in the game, I'm not sure who they are, since it's a public table and it started recently. The first 2+2er to show had folded on the flop, so I may be just with the party players now.

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls...

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Here's the notes I put in my poker tracker notes on this hand:


-I should have re-raised preflop.

-With 4.5 outs and 8.5:1 pot odds, this isn't such a bad call, considering I should be able to get a little action later. However, it could be re-raised behind me, which would suck.

-I'm a little curious if this was a good opportunity to try to buy outs with my overcards by three-betting. The remaining players in the hand (BB and UTG) would have to face two cold if I called, but the pot would be pretty big. If I raised that would give them incentive to bugger off. BUT, it could be capped behind me if I did that and I can't count on a free river card.

So...

Question 1) Re-raise this pf? (I think the answer is yes... I'm damn sure it is, actually, but I've taken a little break from limit recently, so I'm a bit rusty.)

Question 2) Who here 3-bets the flop? Does anyone fold?

BTW, entity, thanks for coming out. I knew you were a 2+2er since you were playing at the lagfest at the same time and I was watching that table... at this table, I noticed that you were playing well post-flop and winning a whole ton of pots.

--Dave.

[davelin]

Fold the flop.

[SCfuji]

haha hope you hit that bdfd

[shadow29]

Cold calls are for wimps.

I fold the flop. Especially since it's two back to you.

[itsmesteve]

Without reads at a .5/1 table i think a reraise in position is OK preflop, but not necessarily THE play to make, though I could certainly be wrong. On the flop, I think a three bet certainly gets capped and have a feeling CO has a similar big suited ace, possibly with spades, which hampers your chances of winning to the point where folding is my play.

where's this table?

[Entity]

I think 3-betting the flop is better than calling. I'd probably fold though. I would've 3-bet PF. Let's build a pot.

Rob

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i.e. discount my outs for the AQ overcards because some of them are going to be spades and it'll be expensive to find out where I stand?

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i.e. discount my outs for the AQ overcards because some of them are going to be spades and it'll be expensive to find out where I stand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. And you might be reverse dominated as well.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3-betting the flop is better than calling. I'd probably fold though. I would've 3-bet PF. Let's build a pot.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Rob,

Agreed re: 3bpf.

Since I'm definitely not comfortable raising here, I'd rather fold. Probably a smaller mistake than raising...

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i.e. discount my outs for the AQ overcards because some of them are going to be spades and it'll be expensive to find out where I stand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and everything Shadow said. I think giving yourself 4.5 outs is very generous here.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i.e. discount my outs for the AQ overcards because some of them are going to be spades and it'll be expensive to find out where I stand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. And you might be reverse dominated as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly possible.

By whom and will they call two cold?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i.e. discount my outs for the AQ overcards because some of them are going to be spades and it'll be expensive to find out where I stand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. And you might be reverse dominated as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly possible.

By whom and will they call two cold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you mean. You could easily be dominated by one of the two flop aggressors.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i.e. discount my outs for the AQ overcards because some of them are going to be spades and it'll be expensive to find out where I stand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. And you might be reverse dominated as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly possible.

By whom and will they call two cold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you mean. You could easily be dominated by one of the two flop aggressors.

[/ QUOTE ]

True.


However, I don't think Q3 or Q5 are betting this flop. So that leaves A8,A5,A3. It wouldn't make much sense for UTG+1 to have any of those hands, likewise, it would take a fair amount of bravery for CO to raise with those hands (other than A8s spades).

Now, since we didn't give UTG+1 the option of capping we don't really know what he has. However, to bet on this flop in EP vs 6 players, he's got to have something good, probably something that has me dominated. Likewise CO's either on a flush or straight draw or has me dead (88 etc.).

I think folding this flop is in order, but I'm not going to just take it on authority.

Other than the rare exception of A8s spades, I don't think I'd be reverse dominated in this hand. (Edit: at least not by the bettors.)

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
(Edit: at least not by the bettors.)

[/ QUOTE ]

There ya go.

BB, UTG, and MP2 are all candidates for having you reverse dominated with the ace.

[DavidC]

How did the suitedness of this board affect my decision?

On one hand, it narrowed my odds a bit. However, if the same action happened on a rainbow board, I could expect to be against a set more often, correct?

If this is a fairly close fold in this case, or perhaps even an easy fold, would it be a much easier fold on a rainbow board?

--Dave.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
How did the suitedness of this board affect my decision?

On one hand, it narrowed my odds a bit. However, if the same action happened on a rainbow board, I could expect to be against a set more often, correct?

If this is a fairly close fold in this case, or perhaps even an easy fold, would it be a much easier fold on a rainbow board?

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you call, and the turn is the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Bet, raise, your action?

Your outs aren't clean here. Original raiser may very well have AK. Hard to say. Obviously you want him to have AJ or JJ here, but you aren't closing the action on this flop and you aren't super happy with two of your pair outs, leaving you with 4 semi-dirty outs, or probably around 2-3 outs when completely adjusted. Getting ~16:2 not closing the action this is a pretty decent time to fold, unless you think 3-betting can get you to the river for free and there's a reasonable chance you're ahead (which is unlikely).

Rob

[DavidC]

Very well, thanks.

I will definitely be folding if it's bet and raised though.

[joeski19]

This is not really the same, but it did bug me. I do feel I played it correctly though. Or did I?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, CO calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, CO folds, BB calls, Hero folds.

River: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, BB folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+2 shows [ Ac, 6c ] high card ace.
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 11.25 BB. </font>

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not really the same, but it did bug me. I do feel I played it correctly though. Or did I?


[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like a much better hand than mine! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Your continuation bet was alright. Your BDF alone almost gave you correct odds, the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif isn't as scary, and you probably like your overcard outs (other than A /images/graemlins/heart.gif).

Was this from the same table?

[joeski19]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not really the same, but it did bug me. I do feel I played it correctly though. Or did I?


[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like a much better hand than mine! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Your continuation bet was alright. Your BDF alone almost gave you correct odds, the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif isn't as scary, and you probably like your overcard outs (other than A /images/graemlins/heart.gif).

Was this from the same table?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't have much of a read on the guy. Only a few hands and he seemed rather tight. I figured he had a OESD / FD so when the turn came I decided to get out. Just burned me when he showed his cards. He left the table right after this hand and I wrote down some notes. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Not the same table I hope. I've been trying my best to find decent tables. i.e. If I see to many 2+2 type players I move along. /images/graemlins/cool.gif