starting hands for razz

[Nicmavsfan28]

I can guess that 72 is a good starting hand for razz. I am also guessing that any hand i would fold in high hand games is a good hand as well, obviously. Since flushes and straights dont count against you, what hands do you look for? The wheel or 2-3-4-5-6? /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[fnord_too]

I am no razz player, but there are some serious holes in your logic. First, A23 is the best starting hand (you get three cards). Second, if you played every hand you fold in stud high you would be playing a TON of hands (bad) and a lot of hands like QT6 (which is horrid). Sklansky on Poker (I think that's the one) is 50% about razz. You should pick it up if you are interested in the game.

[Luv2DriveTT]

I don't play Razz either, but you are way off in your understanding of the rules.

The lowest hand wins the pot. Aces are low, and straights and flushes have no effect on the low value of a hand. The best possible hand is 5-4-3-2-A.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[TheShootah]

An Ace is low always! The starting hands in Razz are a bit relative, for instance, if you see all the upcards are above Ten you would obviously have the best hand with (A /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, but in other cases you would have to throw away a hand like (A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif) 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif because an A /images/graemlins/club.gif in the door raised and a 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif reraised. Awesome hands are wheel draws, like (A /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif) 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or good sixes (2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, good hands are more rough sixes like (4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif and good(smooth) 7's like (2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and ok hands are the rougher sevens like (2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and smooth 8's (A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif . Also keep in mind what card is in the door. In my examples I put the biggest card in the door all the time, but that is really important. A hand like (7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) A /images/graemlins/club.gif is stronger than if the 7 was in the door because no one knows what you have. One last tip: Keep in mind that rough 8's can be pretty vulnerable, so if you unsure of whether to call, raise, or fold, either reraise to get it heads up, where you won't be that bad of a dog, or fold. But it's all relative. OH! One last thing that is very important, and I feel stupid for not already saying it: The cards that are out are SOOO important. If you have a hand like (A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif but the other 3 8's are out and a 5 is gone, you hand is really strong, because it is so hard for you to pair your cards now. That is the first thing that you have to do once you are dealt your hand. A hand like (4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif isn't half as good if all the 5's and 3's are out, because it's hard to make a hand. Sorry for the rambling, and I hope this helped....

[Nicmavsfan28]

I would like to reiterate my thanks straight away. When I wrote that, i did not understand the game as well as i did when is sat down at the computer a little while ago. Today my friend and I got several hands in, and we learned bit as we went. Anyway, please ramble on more about good hands and tips, because i am learning so much from you and people nice like yourself on here. My friend and i figured out that the wheel is the best hand today, and that low pair dont cripple you as much as you might think sometimes, especially if your opponents dont see it. (BLUFFS 8)I love a well timed semi-bluff) Anyway please explain 'in the door' and smooth vs rough a little more, i think im catching on. example is it smooth because you have to cards toward the wheel and a 6/7/ or (sometimmes?) 8?
And is the eight important for similiar reasons in Omaha8? /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TheShootah]

A card in the door is the only card your opponent can see, so the way I write the hands is your hole cards that only you can see are in the parentheses, and the door card is out. A smooth hand is a hand where the cards that you own are lower than they could be. It's kind of hard to explain for me, but I think examples will do the trick. A smooth 8 on 4th street would look something like this: (A /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif) 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, while the roughest 8 you can have on 4th would be (5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif) 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Basically smooth hands can make better lows. It's a good thing that you picked up on the fact that pairs are not always a bad thing. Razz is a game of boards. The fact that your board is better than your opponents is all that counts if you think he will fold. Example: You have (5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif against your opponents (xx xx) 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif . You should bet. If he calls you, which he may, and you catch good again on 5th, he may have to fold, which would be a mistake if he knew what you had. Your bet on 4th will enable you to win the pot on 5th if you catch good again, because he has to fear that you already made a low. Here is another important concept. Suppose you raise coming in with
(A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and everyone else folds around to your friend who calls with (xx xx) 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. On fourth you catch the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and your friend catches the 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. He bets into you. You should fold. There is not enough money in the pot to make you chase here. If there is a double raise on 3rd, so let's say your friend reraised you back with a visibly worse hand(which may not always be wrong) and you call. Now you both catch the same cards, and he bets. You can actually call this time, because the pot was inflated on the last round. Keep the questions coming!

[Nicmavsfan28]

Correct me if im wrong, but a smooth 7 is like 7 with A-2-4, while a rough 7 is like 7 with A-3-6. am i not correct that a 7 is a playable card and 72 with another toward the wheel in the 7-card stud style game would actually not be that bad a play. Perhaps my unfamiliarity with this particular game was confusing you into thinking im new to probablity and psychology. Please let me know if im wrong about the smooth and rough idea, still new to that-but learning quickly. /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[TheShootah]

You are correct. I am not sure what your confusion is with the seven specifically. Most 7's are always playable, and some 8's even. No problem there.

EDIT: I would buy Sklansky on Poker for better coverage of all the phases of Razz.

[lighterjobs]

I think stud-low can be played 2-7 where the best hand is 23457 and not 23456 and where an ace is high and straights and flushes count against you, but razz is played A-5 where the best hand is a wheel and straights and flushes don't count against you.

[TheShootah]

I have never seen the 2-7 stud spread or played or written about anywhere. Razz is the only strictly low stud variant I have ever seen anywhere.

[FeliciaLee]

Some old timers told me that the game really did go off occasionally in Vegas when Stud was at it's peak.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
I have never seen the 2-7 stud spread or played or written about anywhere. Razz is the only strictly low stud variant I have ever seen anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's called London Lowball and played Pot-limit/No-limit in the UK (though I guess it's dying out).

[TheShootah]

Felicia, nice to see you!! How ya feelin? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TheShootah]

Pot Limit no limit stud must suck.....

[FeliciaLee]

I'm fine, thanks for asking. I'm actually going to play in the HORSE tourney at the Plaza on Monday. My surgeon approved it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Andy B]

London lowball is played with 64 rules, not 2-7. Aces count low, but straights and flushes count against you, so the best low is 6432A. The game is played pot-limit, and it is discussed in the Ciaffone/Reuben book.

[TheShootah]

Awesome! Good luck to you. I am sure my awesome Razz article will help your game immensely..... /images/graemlins/cool.gif Nice to see you back in action!

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
London lowball is played with 64 rules, not 2-7. Aces count low, but straights and flushes count against you, so the best low is 6432A. The game is played pot-limit, and it is discussed in the Ciaffone/Reuben book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dang. I thought when I scanned the chapter in PL/NL it said it was played 2-7. OTOH, i didn't really read it since I'll never get a chance to play this game.

I actually think pot-limit 7stud would be fun as hell.

[TheShootah]

It seems like the later streets would have less play then they already do with PL Stud.

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
London lowball is played with 64 rules, not 2-7. Aces count low, but straights and flushes count against you, so the best low is 6432A. The game is played pot-limit, and it is discussed in the Ciaffone/Reuben book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dang. I thought when I scanned the chapter in PL/NL it said it was played 2-7. OTOH, i didn't really read it since I'll never get a chance to play this game.

I actually think pot-limit 7stud would be fun as hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can play PL stud on the B2B network. Not much action there tho, but the 0.50 euro bring-in game is running most of the time (strangely, there's no ante and high card brings it in)