A KQs disagreement with Wynton

[spamuell]

I was sweating the 2+2er Wynton at some Stars 3/6 6-max while we both talk on AIM because we both play in that game (no, I wasn't playing at the time).

We had a few minor disagreements but one hand in particular made me double take. I don't have the HH but I think this is how it went, Wynton let me know if it wasn't:

5 or 6 handed, Wynton is on the button with KQs (he didn't say the suits so I'm not sure if he flopped a backdoor flush draw).

Two limpers and Wynton raises, sb calls, bb folds and limpers call. Four to a flop of 973r for 9sbs. Checked to the CO who bets, Wynton folds.

I react pretty strongly in AIM and say the decision is call or raise and folding is out of the question because Wynton is getting 10:1, he has two overcards and position and there's also some chance of having the best hand. Wynton says there's very little chance of him having the best hand. I agree but I still think not taking a card off here is insane and raising is likely a good play given that the passive opponents on Stars 3/6 are frequently going to call and then check to you on the turn.

This feels like a pretty basic question to me but given that a 2+2er disagrees, I thought I'd better check.

[balkii]

no way i'd fold.

[Wynton]

Here's the hand history. For what it's worth, I usually look at this situation as a raise/fold choice. But for some reason - perhaps because I was losing at this table - I had a bad feeling about raising. And I really thought that the guy betting out had a made hand. My question is whether the pot odds justified a call, even if the opponent had a made hand.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP (poster) checks, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: 5.16 BB

[Wynton]

Now that I think about this some more, I believe raising was the right play, since I had position and it might have bought be a free card.

But I'm still not sure about the basic question of whether the odds would have justified a simple call too.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm still not sure about the basic question of whether the odds would have justified a simple call too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wynton,

Why can't you figure this out? How many outs do you have? What is the pot size? Do you have sufficient odds?

You have ~3.5 outs. (Conservatively speaking) You are getting 8-1 on the flop. It's pretty close but I think a fold based strictly on odds. I'm trying to tighten up in this respect.

One thing to consider is that you should be slightly more likely to continue past the flop with KQ over AK or AQ because you suffer less from reverse domination. Even though the odds dictate a fold, I would call here.

Krishan

[imitation]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is whether the pot odds justified a call, even if the opponent had a made hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible question to ask....

[BreakEvenPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Even though the odds dictate a fold, I would call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think it's a raise... and our hero has more than 3.5 outs.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, I usually look at this situation as a raise/fold choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, therein lies the problem.

[kiddo]

3.5 outs against 1 limper and 1 poster and a not very drawish flop. Man u are conservative.

If I thought I knew this guy betting had a pair I would call flop and fold turn. Raise if I thought it gave me a freecard. Have to be more scary flop for me to fold KQ. AQ would have been worse (at least if more people in pot), cause people always limp Ax but not Kx, but still call.

[Victor]

raise or fold.
haha. so wrong.
the answer lies therein.

[Wynton]

OK, here's where I offer my persuasive rebuttal:

Only I can't. /images/graemlins/frown.gif What can I say, I'm convinced now it was badly played. But I will add that this hand does reflect a strange problem I suffer from. I really do have a somewhat bizarre tendency to ignore calling as an option, unless I have a flush or straight draw. Usually this manifests itself in too much aggression, though here it appeared as too conservative. No idea where this came from.

Has anyone else ever had this problem? Has anyone even heard of this problem before?

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone else ever had this problem? Has anyone even heard of this problem before?

[/ QUOTE ]

U havent played partys 10/20, then u hadnt asked this q /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[arkady]

Well you have to call, for a few reasons.

1) You could have clean overcards, in fact KQ is often cleaner to draw to on rags than AK.

2) You are becoming a bit too simple to read too. My notes would be: "raised preflop, folded for 1 bet on the flop...probably folds if misses". Anyone paying ANY attention will have you pegged quickly.

Note: After MP raises, do not fold to his raise unless it comes back 2 more to you.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Well you have to call, for a few reasons.

1) You could have clean overcards, in fact KQ is often cleaner to draw to on rags than AK.

2) You are becoming a bit too simple to read too. My notes would be: "raised preflop, folded for 1 bet on the flop...probably folds if misses". Anyone paying ANY attention will have you pegged quickly.

Note: After MP raises, do not fold to his raise unless it comes back 2 more to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with point two here. I will sometimes raise and fold overcards on the flop and I find it makes it easier to steal with them later. This may not be the spot to do that and I think wynton needs to be a little more assertive but you can save a few bets in the right spots by folding and set up steals down the road.

[ggbman]

You are getting odds to call a bet here, the problem with raising is you often will be tempted to bet the turn if the CO checks to you to get him off a weak hand, and you over-commit yourself to the pot. Generally, i like calling and folding the turn unimproved here.