How to handle open collusion in a poker room @ Roman Casino In WA

[RainFall]

The pitboss sat and watched open collusion and said nothing between very clickish FOB's. Checking down sets vs 2 pair so they didnt bust each other. Poker boss watched, didn't care. Should i even bother saying anything? Or just leave? That sh*t pisses me off and i'll never go back. But What is the correct etiquette?

[Demana]

I talked with one floor person about it and she said that the best thing you can do is simply get up and leave. Blowing the whistle will do you no good while you are there.

You also have the opportunity to post up on 2+2 so that others know about the collusion and can avoid places like that.

[bernie]

What's an FOB?

Many players will check down when HU. Many don't really know it's a form of collusion. If they play their hands str8 up/reasonable to the point where it becomes HU, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I've learned to just deal with it.

It does suck, but there's really nothing you can do.

Come up to muckleshoot...

They just gave away 100k of non-JP raked money to the poker players. They do it 3 times a year.

b

[RainFall]

FOB=Fresh off the Boat(typically if not exclusively asian). 1st generation.

muckleshoot needs work. the NL blind structure is crap, the mid limit seemed too tight, and the tourneys are horrible.

I've really enjoy the popup of home NL100/NL200 lately. Would prefer higher but thats all that is spread.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
the mid limit seemed too tight

[/ QUOTE ]

Compared to what? The mid limits at Roman Casino? Lil's has great action if you don't mind being 34th on the list. Too tight doesn't even come close to the description of the Muck mid limit game. What do you consider loose?

[ QUOTE ]
the NL blind structure is crap

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't have a NL game.

[ QUOTE ]
and the tourneys are horrible.


[/ QUOTE ]

In comparison to what other tourneys in the area? They couldn't be that horrible since 2 sell out regularly (thurs/mon. Moreso thurs) and one is close to selling out (tues).

b

[RainFall]

Roman is crap.. I dont play there.. first time i ever have..

My bad i was thinking tulalip the re the mid limits and NL. you are right Muck is probably the best around.

The only problem with the muck tourneys is you have to get there too early because they often sell out

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
My bad i was thinking tulalip

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost asked if you were talking about tulalip as it sounded eerily familiar to what I've heard. Bobbyi would know better about that place than me. I think he reported that the games are good, but everything else (service-wise) sucked.

b

[nolanfan34]

Regarding NL, Little Creek in Shelton spreads NL, a $100-$300 max buy in game. They usually get it running Fri and Sat from what i've heard. That's pretty far south though, I don't know where you're at.

I've never even heard of Roman casino, so I guess it'll be easy to avoid.

[gamblore99]

this is not collusion. I see this all the time and doesn't bother me in the slightest. If they were playing in a way to give them an unfair advantage, coordinating there play to push people out of pot, value bet and such, that is collusion, and that actually effects you. This does not.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never even heard of Roman casino, so I guess it'll be easy to avoid

[/ QUOTE ]

It's in skyway. North of Renton, south east seattle. Right next to Skyway park Bowl which, I think, also has poker. However, not a real great area to be caught in after dark.

b

[bernie]

Selective softplaying is still very poor game etiquette.

b

[The Dude]

It's against the rules in tournament play, and it hurts the other players significantly. I would definatly make sure the floorman stopped it immediately. If it's in a cash game, I don't care as long as they don't do anything a-typical while there's a 3rd player in the hand (like raise to drive someone out, knowing they can just check it down).

[Sunshine]

This is collusion and one of the reasons I prefer limit: The variance in NL makes it possible for collusion to make a big-time dent in your stack while in limit, when it happens, it costs less overall.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
It's against the rules in tournament play

[/ QUOTE ]

Um? One of the most common things in all of tournament poker is for two players to check down a hand in order to bust a third all-in player. In the case described here, there isn't even a third player involved.

SpaceAce

[slavic]

They don't have a NL game.

The muck will spread a NL game if there is demand. Unfortunatly the players who want to have it spread want a 10/20 blind game and there is only a $500 max bet size. If those players would allow for a 5 and 5 blinds or maybe even 5-10 blinds it might go, but the $20 blind is just to large for the washington limits.

Also the floor isn't that interested in spreading it and I'd only trust a handfull of dealers to be able to run it.

[SNOWBALL138]

this isn't collusion.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
Selective softplaying is still very poor game etiquette.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but I don't see it harming anyone. Players who do this are usually there for more socail/gambling reasons, I would imagine. Making a big deal about it is just likely to make the game unfriendly and possibly tighter.

To The Dude
I have no tournament experience, but how is it different in a tournament if it is just them?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but I don't see it harming anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can make a new player to the room rather uncomortable. Especially if they soft play each other yet play him hard. He could be leery of the game.

[ QUOTE ]
Making a big deal about it is just likely to make the game unfriendly and possibly tighter.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree it's a necesary evil that one has to deal with. It still sucks.

b

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no tournament experience, but how is it different in a tournament if it is just them?

[/ QUOTE ]
In a winner-take-all tournament it wouldn't matter much. But normal tournaments have multiple prizes. Your equity in the prize money improves when another player is knocked out. It also improves when two equal stacks fight and the money is redistributed so that one stack becomes big while the other becomes small (because the small stack could go out soon).

Imagine there were two prizes and three players left including you. Wouldn't you be excited to see your opponents go head-to-head with one of them likely to be forced all-in? Wouldn't it suck if they had an understanding that they would never bet against each other in this situation? Theoretically your chance of winning would not be affected. But your chance of finishing second instead of third would be greatly reduced.

Historical note: Round-robin tournaments to pick the challenger for the world chess championship were replaced by knockouts in part because Soviet-block players were cheating under secret instructions from their government. They would play easy draws against each other so that they could save their energy for "rest-of-the-world" opponents who had to be prepared to fight every round.

Young Bobby Fischer was heavily criticized for making these accusations but history proved him right.

[Victor]

this isnt collusion really. its an understanding that these 2 players have. it doesnt even affect others. they dont even kno what they are doin.

the next level is what pisses me off tho.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]

To The Dude
I have no tournament experience, but how is it different in a tournament if it is just them?

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's say we're at the final table. For every place higher I finish, the payout increases greatly. If two people get involved in a hand, there's a chance one of them will get knocked out, which would increase my payday. If the play nice to each other and check it down, then they are hurting everybody else in the tournament, to the benefit of each other - which is collusion. In a cash game, I don't care if they play nice to each other since it doens't effect the next hand at all. (In fact, the hand usually ends much quicker, which is good for my hourly rate.)

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Um? One of the most common things in all of tournament poker is for two players to check down a hand in order to bust a third all-in player.

[/ QUOTE ]
Each player may individually decide that they'd rather check a particular street, since it is more +EV for them to keep their opponent in the hand, because it increases the probability the all-in player will be knocked out. Each player is acting is his/her best interest, without considerations for anyone else's EV.

However, let's say the player who has the button makes the nuts on the river and checks it behind. This is an obvious example of collusion, since the only reason he'd check it behind is for the benefit of the player with chips remaining. Were I the player knocked out on that hand, I would complain to the tournament director and ask that both players be removed from the tournament immediately.

Collusion is when two or more players coordinate their play in a fashion that benefits each other and artificially hurts the EV of anyone else at the table - at least that's my definition. This usually doesn't include things like "running it twice," or "checking it down" once it's heads up.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

[ QUOTE ]
FOB's

[/ QUOTE ] Whatever...

Though this kind of remark is a bit annoying, there might be something to it. If you are using it to describe players whom are total gamblers (albeit asain) there might be some validity in using it. But against these players, they are not colluding in an important sense. You will always see a showdown and almost always see a showdown of hands thought to be legitamate. Often you will see monsters. Sure it may be "illegal" but it is honest. It is a deal made out loud. It is a obvious deal between unskilled players in an effort to be friendly.

Almost all the games in these Wa. cardbarns that I have felt like I have a big overlay are the really friendly ones. It is these "friendly" players that show up every night and gamble. They keep the lights turned on, are often fun to play w/ and keep me in chips. They may be breaking some rule, but are rarely CHEATING or being unethical.

I wont do this w/ them (only rarely) and they don't mind. They are there for the action, the battle and want to minimize the damage w/ their friends that play w/ them every night. Let 'em. I don't see the big deal. They do it at the Muck 20/40, at parkers Tulalip (sometimes). They do it in every neighborhood card room in Wa.

Though I have seen this happen hundreds of times in Wa. card barns, I have only rarely seen it happen between two serious players.

And if you have a problem w/ asain people you might want to find a new hobby or play online so you don't have to see their mongoloid eyes. Then you wont have to be reminded that your ancestors once took a boatride over the great pond as well.

I personally like them, they have a wonderful spirit, are my friends and some of them help to subsidize my eating habit. They are much cooler than the white guy looking over my shoulder when I sat in the cubicle. (no offense intended to whitey /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[grouchie]

I don't find this to be collusion, but anyone correct me if i'm wrong please.

I know when I go to the casino and I go with friends, I have no problem taking their money if we are involved in multiway pots.

If we are stuck on the same table, their money is the last money I want. So, if somehow we end up in a heads up situation I check it down without hesitation. We do not verbally ask eachother to do it, we just do it. It's an understanding.

For instance. Recently we are in a 1/2 NL game with a buy-in of 100 max. I'm sitting over 200 at the time and a friend is sitting maybe 150ish.
He raises it to 30 preflop, I call and we get one more caller.

On the flop my friend bets another 30, I raise enough to put the 3rd player all in if he wants to continue (which he calls) and my friend calls.
We check the turn and river down.
I have aces, my friend has kings and the other guy has Q9 suited (hitting 2 pair and winning the majority of the pot).

I think one person commented that I was stupid because I could have had his whole stack, and maybe one person voiced some discontent, but oh well.

Was it collusion? I don't think so. It is just understood that I'll check it down if he's willing.

[brick]

It's collusion if there is any possibility of negatively effecting other players.

[bernie]

Would you check it down against someone else?

b

[jordanx]

This type of play can easily lead to more liberal betting and raising when fish are in a pot, because they don't mind if a friend wins.

It's tough to play with friends and go for the juggular though.

Saying something is probably not a good idea, you don't want to look like a jerk or get people upset w/ you or add tension to the game, I'd just be careful and if it gets out of hand, leave the table and mention something to the floor.

[RainFall]

I don't see how 2 people in a tournament hand checking down a set an the other player checking down 2 pair is NOT collusion. Players are doing it so they both make the money and others are eliminated.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say we're at the final table. For every place higher I finish, the payout increases greatly. If two people get involved in a hand, there's a chance one of them will get knocked out, which would increase my payday. If the play nice to each other and check it down, then they are hurting everybody else in the tournament, to the benefit of each other

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Dude,

What you say is true. However, them playing each other easy could benefit you too.

For simplicity in this example, say you and they have equally sized stacks. If one of them knocks his friend out, you have moved up one place. But it will be harder for you to move up another place past him because he now has twice as many chips as you. If they play nice together, it will be less likely you can move up one place, but more likely you can move up two places.

[Jbrochu]

I was short stacked near the bubble in a Sat. at Foxwoods (top 3 move to next step Sat.) and pushed from the Button. The SB mulled things over for a little while, until the BB told him that if he called, he also would call then check the hand down. Upon hearing this, the SB called pronto.

Since I was new to B&M, I didn't know what to do. I looked at the dealer for help, and he just kind of shrugged and rolled his eyes up like "that's how it goes."

Anyway, they tripled me up and one of them got crippled in the process so I let it go. However, if this ever happens again I'm going to pull a nutty.