I grow increasingly frustrated with the fact that... [Archive]

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KSOT

04-22-2005, 06:48 PM

...one really bad session completely wipes out like... 10 previous winning sessions for me.

Is that the way it is for everyone? I earn around 5-10 BBs per winning sessions and then I find myself at a table where 8 people unconditionally call me down to the river and lose 30-40 BBs. Makes me very sad =/

DavidC

04-22-2005, 06:52 PM

Having them call is great.

Losing a bunch of cash sucks.

Sorry bro, but it happens.

However, you can win 10x session in one session easier than you can lose it.

KSOT

04-22-2005, 06:57 PM

I feel like there's a limit to the positive aspect of multiple callers. I'll take 3 or 4, but how can I expect my aces to win win unimproved if the whole table is in the hand?

olavfo

04-22-2005, 07:00 PM

Looks like you're happy to bag small wins, and that you don't want to quit a loser, so that you keep playing when you're stuck. Is this correct?

If yes, The solution is easy. Don't quit every time you have made a small win. Keep playing when the game is good, and you will have more big winning sessions.

To avoid the when-to-quit problem alltogether, play for a fixed amount of time, say 2 hours per session and then take a break.

olavfo

smartalecc5

04-22-2005, 07:03 PM

UncleSalty

04-22-2005, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like there's a limit to the positive aspect of multiple callers. I'll take 3 or 4, but how can I expect my aces to win win unimproved if the whole table is in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This thinking is dead wrong, and is a fundamental misunderstanding among many beginning players. Go read the FAQ sticky immediately, and take specific note of this quote:

[ QUOTE ]
How do I deal with all these loose players sucking out on me with terrible hands?
A common complaint is that the players are so bad that it actually prevents you from making money. New players often feel that if they could just go to a game where opponents "played more reasonable hands", "respected my raises", and "didn't chase all the way to the river" they would make more money. This whole notion (to quote SSH) is absurd. Poker is a game where you profit from the mistakes of your opponents. If your opponents make more mistakes you will make more money. Loose, passive limit Holdem games are highly profitable for this reason. It is as simple as that. Focus on winning the most money, not the most pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaron W.

04-22-2005, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is that the way it is for everyone? I earn around 5-10 BBs per winning sessions and then I find myself at a table where 8 people unconditionally call me down to the river and lose 30-40 BBs. Makes me very sad =/

[/ QUOTE ]

Eventually, you're going to have a +75BB session and laugh at this post. All you need to do is change your attitude about variance.

KSOT

04-22-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like you're happy to bag small wins, and that you don't want to quit a loser, so that you keep playing when you're stuck. Is this correct?

If yes, The solution is easy. Don't quit every time you have made a small win. Keep playing when the game is good, and you will have more big winning sessions.

To avoid the when-to-quit problem alltogether, play for a fixed amount of time, say 2 hours per session and then take a break.

olavfo

[/ QUOTE ]

You hit the nail on the head. I'll give your suggestion a try. The main reason I tend to quit while I'm ahead is mostly because I've lost my profits so many times before and kicked myself for not leaving sooner.

hicherbie

04-22-2005, 07:15 PM

yeah, just remember to stay at the tables with the loosest/dumbest players. give it enough time and a lot of their chips will magically appear in your stack.

McGahee

04-22-2005, 07:34 PM

Some of the best advice I ever got was in Lee Jones' book quoting Sklansky. Essentially, there is nothing special about any one "session". If you decide to play poker seriously it's all one big session.

Also, bad players do in fact save you a tremendous amount of money. If you don't believe me, check this out.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ts Kc (straight, ace high).
Hero has Qc Qd (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: UTG wins 12.75 BB.

TomBrooks

04-22-2005, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take 3 or 4 [callers], but how can I expect my aces to win win unimproved if the whole table is in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't. AA only wins something like 34% of the time against 8 opponents.

i wanna be me

04-22-2005, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the best advice I ever got was in Lee Jones' book quoting Sklansky. Essentially, there is nothing special about any one "session". If you decide to play poker seriously it's all one big session.

Also, bad players do in fact save you a tremendous amount of money. If you don't believe me, check this out.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ts Kc (straight, ace high).
Hero has Qc Qd (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: UTG wins 12.75 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

wow that's crazy - that's like when my g/f and I were playing heads-up and I bluffed at the pot on the river, and she only called with her quad aces.

TomBrooks

04-22-2005, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The main reason I tend to quit while I'm ahead is mostly because I've lost my profits so many times before and kicked myself for not leaving sooner.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't be afraid. Feel the force.

KSOT

04-22-2005, 08:08 PM

I'm currently 158 hands into a session, down half my stack and determined to either go broke or work my way back up to my original buy-in I guess this is the sort of thinking that screws me over...

hicherbie

04-22-2005, 08:12 PM

being determined to go broke is bad. take a break.

KSOT

04-22-2005, 08:16 PM

Well y'see, I've had this happen to me numerous times and if I had enough time, I've always been able to come back and have never once gone broke. I've had to leave while I was down big, but I've never totally busted out. Until I do, it'll be hard to shake this mentality.

olavfo

04-22-2005, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You hit the nail on the head. I'll give your suggestion a try. The main reason I tend to quit while I'm ahead is mostly because I've lost my profits so many times before and kicked myself for not leaving sooner.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know how you feel, because I did this myself when I'd just started playing. Fight the urge to quit a winner when you're a few dollars ahead, and you'll be rewarded.

olavfo

Rudi

04-23-2005, 12:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You hit the nail on the head. I'll give your suggestion a try. The main reason I tend to quit while I'm ahead is mostly because I've lost my profits so many times before and kicked myself for not leaving sooner.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know how you feel, because I did this myself when I'd just started playing. Fight the urge to quit a winner when you're a few dollars ahead, and you'll be rewarded.

olavfo

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm working on as well. I'm very glad to see this thread and know there are other people who grab their small winnings and run so the "crazies" won't take my profits. I'm going to start sitting down and either play a set amount of hands or hours or quit for the session if I go down 30BB.

tinhat

04-23-2005, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm currently 158 hands into a session, down half my stack and determined to either go broke or work my way back up to my original buy-in I guess this is the sort of thinking that screws me over...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll say. Once I imagined my entire poker career being played at the very same table with the 'same' players, the meaning of "it's ALL one long session" really sunk in. I started to appreciate the absurdity of "quitting while I'm ahead" or "playing until I get it back." They are dangerous ILLUSIONS.

If you always play at the same table it just doesn't make any sense to think you're running off with quick profits. Or sticking around until you get your losses back. The situation you left at your one and only table is the exact same situation you will sit down to next time you play cards. Short term p/l has no meaning anymore.

And one other HUGE difference that realization made was my emotional state. I stopped screaming and slamming stuff around me when someone seriously sucked out; I stopped zoning out on getting even with whoever. I had thought maybe my temperament was just too hotheaded to be able to play cards and handle the emotions. But now I see it was my misunderstanding causing that and steam doesn't come out my ears anymore. I don't mind 'congratulating' clueless suckouts now - they'll always be holding my money for me and always be at 'my table'. At some point the inevitable odds and correct play will take care of things for me...

Mike

SCfuji

04-23-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
then I find myself at a table where 8 people unconditionally call me down to the river

[/ QUOTE ]

please show me where this table is. please.

grimel

04-23-2005, 02:14 PM

Everyone believes you; it has happened to everyone at least once or twice. TODAY, at $25NL I raised $5 pre flop with AA, was re-raised to $10. I pushed (duh!) and was called for his last $15 - 96 off 96 on turn and river. It's maddening, but it happens with uncanny regularity.

Francis

04-23-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll take 3 or 4 [callers], but how can I expect my aces to win win unimproved if the whole table is in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't. AA only wins something like 34% of the time against 8 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the key takeaway here is you've got 33% pot equity, and are only contributing something like 13% of the money, a huge overlay.

Pump up that pot, unless you clearly see you're beat. And even then, don't fold to save a bet or two, I've seen more people show down cheese trying to win a huge pot.