2+2 hand

[cold_cash]

This one might be a snoozer, but I'm wondering how you'd play the flop in this hand.

The CO was Entity, who was playing pretty seriously but could also have a pretty wide range of what you might consider "capping hands".

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, Hero...?

[Entity]

I think it's important to note that cash has yet to reveal that he's 3-betting me with hands like KJo. He's normally a nit, but I think my constant abusing of him may be getting him to loosen up.

Rob

[Bodhi]

Yes, since this is only 6 handed, it's much more difficult to get a read based on the action.

Of course you should bet the flop. Show down your hand.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, since this is only 6 handed, it's much more difficult to get a read based on the action.

Of course you should bet the flop. Show down your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree I want to showdown my hand, but does that mean betting the flop is a no-brainer?

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's important to note that cash has yet to reveal that he's 3-betting me with hands like KJo. He's normally a nit, but I think my constant abusing of him may be getting him to loosen up.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this is true.

In my own defense, however, I figured KJ was probably pretty good against the range of hands you would raise with in this particular spot.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's important to note that cash has yet to reveal that he's 3-betting me with hands like KJo. He's normally a nit, but I think my constant abusing of him may be getting him to loosen up.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this is true.

In my own defense, however, I figured KJ was probably pretty good against the range of hands you would raise with in this particular spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Duh. K9s is probably good against the range of hands I'm openraising in this spot, but only when you extract value postflop.

Rob

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
Duh. K9s is probably good against the range of hands I'm openraising in this spot, but only when you extract value postflop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't "duh" me, boy. I agree though.

Having said that, do you think I will get the most value out of my hand by betting the flop?

[mscags]

I would definitely bet the flop. If he raises and you still think he has you beat make it three to go. If he caps I would check call the rest of the way.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
I would definitely bet the flop. If he raises and you still think he has you beat make it three to go. If he caps I would check call the rest of the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like a sure fire recipe for losing as much as I possibly can if I'm behind.

[Bodhi]

You're thinking very defensively. Being aggressive is also a good recipe for winning more $ if you are ahead. You might even make him fold.

[MrWookie47]

When I look at this battle between to great players, I seem to be second- and third-level thinking myself into a nasty case of FPS. Anyway, I'm going to take a stab.

Given the looseness of capping standards given, there are a lot of hands you're ahead of here. It's disturbing, however, that you got checked to after Entity did the capping. It smells like a check/raise, but I'm not sure what my plan would be after that. I don't think there's any way we can fold this hand. If check/raised, there's a definite side of me that wants to call, and then raise the turn.

I suppose there's an option to check behind on the flop, and raise the fairly inevitable turn bet. I have no idea if this is as retarded here as it would be against a typical player.

I think I'll cast my vote for bet, call a check/raise, raise the turn if bet into (calling down if 3bet), or betting if checked to on the turn, calling a check/raise, and checking behind on the river to avoid the trifecta. If Entity just calls on the flop, I'll post another plan when I see that action.

[Bodhi]

You belong in a quarry.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
You might even make him fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming this is a good thing. Is it though?

[Bodhi]

Yes. It sounds like entity thinks you're a rock. Exploit your image and bluff more often, too.

[WalkAmongUs]

I'd probably check along and see what happens on the turn. If I'm checked to on the turn, bet out. If I'm check raised the red flags go up. If bet into on the turn, I just call it down.

[MrWookie47]

I don't think it'd be a good idea to go bananas on the turn to make up the lost value if you check behind on the flop. You have an excellent chance that your hand is best here, so if I gave up value on the flop, I'd want to make it up on later streets. However, I don't think I'd be willing to make up that value by capping the turn, so I think betting the flop is better.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
You belong in a quarry.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I know what this means.

[ QUOTE ]
You're thinking very defensively. Being aggressive is also a good recipe for winning more $ if you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

He knows I'm tight. He also knows I don't 3-bet with crap. He capped and then checked to me. If ever there was a time for "defensive" thinking, this is it.

Also, if I he has a worse hand do you think he'll barf chips all over me? I don't.

[DeathDonkey]

Bet until he checkraises you and then raise the river, simple.

-DeathDonkey

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. It sounds like entity thinks you're a rock. Exploit your image and bluff more often, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't do much for us when we have the best hand though. Entity folding here sucks for us most of the time.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. It sounds like entity thinks you're a rock. Exploit your image and bluff more often, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't do much for us when we have the best hand though. Entity folding here sucks for us most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want me to hold on to JJ and QQ. You want me to fold AQ and AT.

I'd just bet the flop and play ABC. If you get checkraised, at this point, you should strongly consider folding.

Rob

[Bodhi]

What do you find in a quarry? Perhaps very hard objects of both the igneous and metamorphic variety...

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if I he has a worse hand do you think he'll barf chips all over me? I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because you don't give enough action. When you bet or raise, you give away too much information. I think your 3-betting with KJo is really big, positive step for you, btw. Next time when you're playing 6 handed against 2+2'ers, exploit your image and do this more often with worse hands.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it'd be a good idea to go bananas on the turn to make up the lost value if you check behind on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It was never my plan to go bananas anywhere.

If I am in fact ahead though, does bet/bet/bet get me the most value?

Is it possible that the most value I could get in this siutation is by checking the flop through, then calling the turn and river, or betting either of those streets if he checks?

This is what I'm after.

There's been quite a few responses so far, but I don't think anyone has really tried to narrow his holdings down.

If I'm winning, am I winning by a landslide?

What if I'm trailing? Do I have a reasonable chance to catch up?

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just bet the flop and play ABC. If you get checkraised, at this point, you should strongly consider folding.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have considered folding, which is a big reason why I checked.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
This is because you don't give enough action.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by "enough" you mean "excessive" then I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
Next time when you're playing 6 handed against 2+2'ers, exploit your image and do this more often with worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you played at one of these tables? This will not work. People will call down with Ace high on a regular basis, even against a "rock" like me.

I know Entity wouldn't, however, because he knows me better than most of the other players.

[SippinSoma]

Is it just me, or is 2+2 getting really good these days?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

Is it possible that the most value I could get in this siutation is by checking the flop through, then calling the turn and river, or betting either of those streets if he checks?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The most value you can get in this hand, against me, 6-handed, is to bet every street. I can have a lot of hands here that are going to appreciate a free look at the turn.

You won't get more out of me by checking the flop but you may earn a hell of a lot less.

Rob

[Shillx]

Depending on the turn card, I like the check-call-raise/fold line here as it does the best against a hand like QQ or JJ. If he is capable of holding aces or AK or kings then obviously it saves you some money as well if you can't get away from this hand.

Brad

[btspider]

bet flop, follow it up with a line that lets you see a showdown. (prob bet until c/r'd, then call down)

are the 2+2 games serious again? i'm not the biggest fan of lagfestivales. lemme know and i'll sit sometime.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
bet flop, follow it up with a line that lets you see a showdown. (prob bet until c/r'd, then call down)

are the 2+2 games serious again? i'm not the biggest fan of lagfestivales. lemme know and i'll sit sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was Entity, GuyonTilt, and Piiop when he posted the thread in the morning, myself and Jaxup played ~100hands .. cash was there ~30hands i think before i left

it was fun, but i felt lost a lot of the time against GoT and Entity

I'd really like for these types of SH 2+2 games to happen

[cold_cash]

When it was 5 or 6 handed or so it was really good. When I first sat down I had a run of hands against GoT and Entity that I thought were post-worthy.

It was sort of a different dynamic because it wasn't a full table, but we were playing a thinking game. (As much of a thinking game as I have at least, which isn't saying a whole lot.)

Once the table filled up it didn't take long for it to turn retardo though. (I shouldn't really say that because I left shortly thereafter, but it was definetely starting to get wild. I don't know if it stayed that way though.)

Here's the rest of the hand posted above:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (6.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results in below:
CO has Qh Qd (two pair, aces and queens).
Hero has Jd Kc (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.75 BB.

I was actually pretty proud of the way I played this, but from the responses here I guess I should re-evaluate that.