KK ace on board, good turn check HU?

[thesharpie]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5. UTG posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG (poster) calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

Villain is unknown. Plan to call a river bet, or check through.

[@bsolute_luck]

well since you're posting, you just sat down.

i don't see anything wrong with a check through because you don't know if he'd bet a jack or flush draw HU. so your hand is 3rd best at this point with 2 outs to improve. you also don't know if he'd fold to a bet on the turn or call down, so even attempting to bluff a J is useless.

my thought anyways.

[toss]

I think this is reader dependent.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is reader dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

he just sat down. what would u do in this situation if you just sat down?

[jrz1972]

Against a read-less opponent, I prefer to bet the turn and take a free showdown.

[mmbt0ne]

Ugh. You can't have a much uglier turn card come out. I see nothing wrong with checking through to call a river bet. You're begging to get check-raised here by any hand that beats you. However, I think he might take shots here with missed flush or straight draws enough to make it a worthwhile play.

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. You can't have a much uglier turn card come out. I see nothing wrong with checking through to call a river bet. You're begging to get check-raised here by any hand that beats you. However, I think he might take shots here with missed flush or straight draws enough to make it a worthwhile play.

[/ QUOTE ]

[SlantNGo]

Very good discipline to check that through. I would have auto-bet it and cursed when I got check/raised.

[TomBrooks]

TURN: I like a BET.

- You have a strong hand and it may be the best hand here, especially against only one opponent. The pairing of the Jacks on the board makes it less likely your opponent has one in their hand.

- Your check through may induce a bet from Villain on the river if he has an ace. Since you plan to (correctly I think) call that river bet anyway, I would rather bet here and try for a free showdown. It will cost the same.

- A big bet (not sure if this applies to a four cent bet /images/graemlins/smile.gif) may win the pot right here.

- The board has straight and flush chances, so giving a free card is not desirable.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. You can't have a much uglier turn card come out. I see nothing wrong with checking through to call a river bet. You're begging to get check-raised here by any hand that beats you. However, I think he might take shots here with missed flush or straight draws enough to make it a worthwhile play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah on further reflection this is better than my line.

[Dave G.]

Tough call. I like checking this turn and planning to call a river bet, after some thought.

The main reason is that getting check-raised here would be ugly. Either betting here and taking a free showdown or checking here and calling a river bet costs the same, but checking here doesn't open you up to an expensive check-raise (which you'll probably call, twice, and lose).

If there were no ace on board, I'd bet this for sure. He bet the flop for a reason. I'm inclined to think it was a good reason since the pot is 4-way. Nice hand.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. You can't have a much uglier turn card come out. I see nothing wrong with checking through to call a river bet. You're begging to get check-raised here by any hand that beats you. However, I think he might take shots here with missed flush or straight draws enough to make it a worthwhile play.

[/ QUOTE ]
As the flop aggressor with an ace on the flop, if someone checkraises me on the big bet street, I feel it's safe to fold. So I like BET/FOLD.

[Marquis]

Nice check on the turn. I don't think he'll fold a weak ace enough for you to continue to represent AK. Couple that with the check-raising threat and it makes it easy.

I also think he'll check a weak ace to you again on the river because your turn check may appear to him that you're just afraid of the jack.

If he bets into you on the river I can't see any way you win this hand but I don't think I could fold in the heat of the moment.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
As the flop aggressor with an ace on the flop, if someone checkraises me on the big bet street, I feel it's safe to fold. I prefer BET/FOLD.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll never understand this line with this hand. This is a good hand. This is a hand we want to show down. He may not have an ace.

It'll cost us one bet to show this down. It'll also cost us one bet to bet/fold. So you basically have a choice between showing this down, or taking it on faith that you're beaten. Can you elaborate on the advantages of the former approach, please?

[TomBrooks]

...This is a good hand. This is a hand we want to show down.

Not against an A or a J

...He may not have an ace.

His checkraise says he does. Either that or a Jack. Because .02/.04 is almost insignificant in terms or real money, lets pretend for a moment that the game is $10/$20. If you were the villian, would you checkraise a guy who raised the flop with an ace and a jack on the board and then bet the turn when a second Jack came? What would make you think hero didn't have an Ace or a Jack and you could bluff him off it? Would you as villian be willing to set yourself up to get three bet? I think folding to a checkraise on this board is about as easy as folding to a checkraise is going to get.

...you basically have a choice between showing this down or taking it on faith that you're beaten. Can you elaborate on the advantages of the former approach

You may not be beaten on the turn, but you might lose to a flush or straight on the river. I don't want to give those draws a free card. A gutshot will fold or call incorrectly which makes you money.

By the way, I am a Prince, if not the King, of Not-Folding-When-I-Should. My WTSD is too close to 40, but I am trying to correct that.

[numeri]

[blind post]

Without any reads, I play this the same. The bet/call by villain on the flop could be a weak A, a J or maybe even a flush draw. When the other J hits on the turn, it looks bad for us. I don't think I could fold to a c/r, so I check behind here and call the river bet.

[Dave G.]

Okay, I can understand not wanting to give a free card. I'd still prefer to check through though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Disconnected]

I would guess villain would bet out the flop with a jack or an ace, also maybe a flush draw, or maybe just to see if the flop missed you. With the turn, the first 2 possibilities (J or A) are terrible, the second 2 are good.

Without a read, and without a really big pot, I'm not fighting really hard, rather getting to showdown as cheaply as I can (I'd call a river bet (unless the river is a King /images/graemlins/cool.gif)). Is that too weak? Fight for this pot harder?

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
...you basically have a choice between showing this down or taking it on faith that you're beaten. Can you elaborate on the advantages of the former approach

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have any reads yet on this particular opponent. If you bet the turn and he calls and then he bets the river, you don't know if you are ahead or behind. Is he bluffing with his missed straight/flush draw or is he figuring he is wa/wb with his ace? I'd much prefer seeing the showdown for 1 bet here.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the turn and he calls and then he bets the river, you don't know if you are ahead or behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes you do.

Your're behind 80-90% of the time.

This is not a bluffing situation. You aggressed on every street. He's not going to bluff this river unless he has a read on you that you bet every street with nothing. Generally you can fold. For your peace of mind, make a crying call the first time just to check. Afterwards, just call every now and then in a situation like this to keep him honest. If you catch him 1 time in 8 your call will be profitable.

In the event he was bluffing, you made an extra bet. More importantly, you've found a live one. Hope he stays at your table, and if he continues in this manner put him on your Buddy List.

[ QUOTE ]
Is he bluffing with his missed straight/flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. See above.