1st hand post - fold the straight on the turn?

[Superfoot]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

feels like i played this very badly. any comments/critisicm is appreciated

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

should i have not called UTG+1's raise here? i figured i was probably beat but the pot was pretty big to go on. after it was 3-bet, well heck it was only one more bet back to me so i just called it.

[Elbie]

I think that you can fold this rather safely. BB seems to have hit his flush and I'd put UTG+1 on a set or possibly two pair. He can improve to a boat on the river, you cannot improve at all.

The pot is big, you're right there but it will cost you at least 2 big bets to find out if your straight is good.

[ArturiusX]

This is a tough one, you'd hate to see a two pair here, but I'd probably fold with 2 against me on the turn.

I like the rest though.

[DeathDonkey]

Of the 3 streets you have shown, I would have capped at least two of them. I am serious.

-DeathDonkey

[xenthebrain]

cap that flop!

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Of the 3 streets you have shown, I would have capped at least two of them. I am serious.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Capping the flop I agree with, but why the Turn? To protect against the fourth flush card possibility on the river or because you think you hand is good often enough to be profitable?

[Shillx]

Tough hand.

-Remember kids, raise that hand preflop! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Brad

In case you didn't understand, this hand really needs to be raised preflop.

[i wanna be me]

[ QUOTE ]
cap that flop!

[/ QUOTE ]

why is everyone in love about capping this flop? you have 8 outs (say 6 with flush draw and possible full house redraw) - and you want the button to call behind you. you're probably only winning with a straight, and need the button in to even make raising close to correct for value.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cap that flop!

[/ QUOTE ]

why is everyone in love about capping this flop? you have 8 outs (say 6 with flush draw and possible full house redraw) - and you want the button to call behind you. you're probably only winning with a straight, and need the button in to even make raising close to correct for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero's backdoor flush draw pretty much negates the discounting of the /images/graemlins/diamond.gif cards that make his straight. With 4 people likely seeing the turn, Hero has an equity edge that he should push.

[Superfoot]

[ QUOTE ]
Tough hand.

-Remember kids, raise that hand preflop! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Brad

In case you didn't understand, this hand really needs to be raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i mostly follow the SSH preflop charts pretty closely, and even for the loose games it doesn't say to raise this. i might just not be good enough to deviate from the charts yet, but can you tell me why to raise this preflop?

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tough hand.

-Remember kids, raise that hand preflop! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Brad

In case you didn't understand, this hand really needs to be raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i mostly follow the SSH preflop charts pretty closely, and even for the loose games it doesn't say to raise this. i might just not be good enough to deviate from the charts yet, but can you tell me why to raise this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its simple, you have more pot equity than 4 random limping hands. So you raise for value.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
and need the button in to even make raising close to correct for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't mind getting the button out here, actually. I don't expect him to fold, but if he does, that's just a bonus. You may miss out on a couple of his bets but you pick up the best position for the rest of the hand, a good trade off.

Edit: I call down and hope to showdown for only one bet on the river. A flush is certainly not a guarantee and I think I'd put my fist through the monitor if I folded the winning straight.

[Superfoot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tough hand.

-Remember kids, raise that hand preflop! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Brad

In case you didn't understand, this hand really needs to be raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i mostly follow the SSH preflop charts pretty closely, and even for the loose games it doesn't say to raise this. i might just not be good enough to deviate from the charts yet, but can you tell me why to raise this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its simple, you have more pot equity than 4 random limping hands. So you raise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh /images/graemlins/confused.gif i still have alot to learn. but it seems to me that all of my opponents would have an equally good chance of pairing their cards, and if one or two of them have pockets, i'm even worse off...
i guess i gotta start plyaing these suited connectors differently. if it was lower, say 76s or 56s, would u still raise preflop?

[Dave G.]

The only reason I can see for raising preflop is to try and buy the button. If you were on the button, I think raising would be an error. If T9s has an equity edge as someone mentioned, it's a very small one.

With suited connectors you want to get in cheap and hope to hit the flop hard. Paying at least 2 bets to play your suited connectors is going to lose you money in the long run, which is why you don't play them against a raise.

So I wouldn't raise this unless I was looking to buy the button and thought there was a good chance he'd fold.

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tough hand.

-Remember kids, raise that hand preflop! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Brad

In case you didn't understand, this hand really needs to be raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i mostly follow the SSH preflop charts pretty closely, and even for the loose games it doesn't say to raise this. i might just not be good enough to deviate from the charts yet, but can you tell me why to raise this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its simple, you have more pot equity than 4 random limping hands. So you raise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh /images/graemlins/confused.gif i still have alot to learn. but it seems to me that all of my opponents would have an equally good chance of pairing their cards, and if one or two of them have pockets, i'm even worse off...
i guess i gotta start plyaing these suited connectors differently. if it was lower, say 76s or 56s, would u still raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You really don't want to just pair your hand in this big pot, you wanna pick up straight and flushdraws which can beat a big field which will pay you off.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I can see for raising preflop is to try and buy the button. If you were on the button, I think raising would be an error. If T9s has an equity edge as someone mentioned, it's a very small one.

With suited connectors you want to get in cheap and hope to hit the flop hard. Paying at least 2 bets to play your suited connectors is going to lose you money in the long run, which is why you don't play them against a raise.

So I wouldn't raise this unless I was looking to buy the button and thought there was a good chance he'd fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can having a small equity edge lose you money in the long run? It'll increase variance, but will win you more in time.

The small equity edge, chance to buy the button, and slight deception value makes this an easy raise for me.

[Dave G.]

Well, I don't necessarily agree that it has an edge at all. I was just saying if it did, it would be tiny, and not worth raising for on its own.

This is a raise to buy the button, not a value raise. The OP is looking to understand why you want to raise here. Value is not the answer.

[@bsolute_luck]

wow, some interesting comments so far. i'd never have thought to raise this preflop from MP /images/graemlins/shocked.gif i think this is a suggestion for experienced players that have great postflop play, but if you struggle with it, i don't think there is a MAJOR problem with limping in. comfort level, play your comfort level.

capping the flop also doesn't make sense. maybe with a stronger flush draw, but you only have a BDFD and i would think you do have to discount your diamond outs with so many people.

that said, i'd go to war on the turn. at this point with the pot so big, i don't care if they know what i have. unless your read is different, why would we put BB on a flush draw? i'm calling down with the pot being so big.