Stop and go against the world's tightest player.

[cmwck]

UTG+1 is 6/0/0.63 after 55 hands. He never bets except with the nuts or second or third nuts. He only calls down if he has a really good hand - at least top pair with the best or second best kicker. EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think ive ever seen him bet.

BB is your average loose passive: 41/6/0.31 after 70 hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Once UTG+1 raises I immediately start putting him on some hands. He would never raise here with AK, AQ, AJ. He can't have two pair with 34 or 49. The most likely hands he has are 99, JJ-AA, or maybe A9s. I debate between 1.folding right here and 2. calling, leading a non-threatening turn, and folding to a raise.

Turn: (9 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, Hero folds...

So I go with option #2.
I was pretty sure he wouldn't raise again with only TPTK

Anyone like this play? What about folding the flop?

[handsome]

what the sh!t? Dude, if you were getting mugged and knew the mugger was going to shoot you if you tried to resist, would you resist? The flop was OK but don't bet again on the turn UI if he "never" bets without a hand.

This is also not a "stop and go" - more like a "go and go"

[Roadstar]

I know this may not change the result of the hand but you must RAISE w/ TT in SB if the pot has not been raised before you!

If you're absolutely sure you're beat because he's that tight then don't bet the turn.

You're probably better off 3 betting the flop to see if he caps, then you know you're done.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
I know this may not change the result of the hand but you must RAISE w/ TT in SB if the pot has not been raised before you!


[/ QUOTE ]
Do you still raise if we know UTG+1 limped in with a hand that either has you crushed (a higher pocket pair) or against which we are a tiny favorite (Two big cards)?

[handsome]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably better off 3 betting the flop to see if he caps, then you know you're done.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not like this advice. What equity do you have by 3-betting in this situation? I hope you're not one of those "just had to see if he really had it" players.

[J_B]

against someone THAT tight, I raise then fold this flop after his bet. I know, I know, you guys wont like this. I have been up against someone this tight before. Almost certainly has KK or QQ. Maybe he's bluffing. But with an Agg factor in the 0 range and never having raising before preflop, it's a toss. Had you have raised this preflop and he three bet it, red lights and sirens would have gone off.

I think yer beat here. Better to save 2.5 BB by not calling than to lose this. I think you are going to have the worst of it here.

[Roadstar]

You're probably right, if he was absolutely certain he was beat then fold to a raise on the flop.

Under any other circumstance (with some doubt), I think 3 betting would be correct with an overpair because hero is likely ahead (more often than not hero should be ahead here with no raise pf). The worst is to call the raise and bet again on the turn UI.

[handsome]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right, if he was absolutely certain he was beat then fold to a raise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No..

[ QUOTE ]
Under any other circumstance (with some doubt), I think 3 betting would be correct with an overpair because hero is likely ahead (more often than not hero should be ahead here with no raise pf).

[/ QUOTE ]

No..

[ QUOTE ]
The worst is to call the raise and bet again on the turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'll let others elaborate.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]

No. I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

[OT Rant] I'll let you in on something, this means that you don't know so you want others to elaborate. This does not help anyone involved. Leave these for the Chris Daddy Cool's, Shillx's, Entity's and Davelin's of the board. [/OT Rant]

[Roadstar]

Okay.... please explain then?

Thanks

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay.... please explain then?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying I can (I'd have check/folded the turn. Come on the guy's a rock). The guys I listed can. But posting the 'I'll let other's elaborate' crap isn't helping me either.

[Roadstar]

Heh sorry, you happened to have posted while I was replying. My posting was directed at Handsome hoping he would reply.

I guess I'll let the experts enlighten me /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right, if he was absolutely certain he was beat then fold to a raise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely worth one sb to try to spike a ten here. I agree with check-folding the turn. I don't see the point of the bet at all.

[dauler]

You've had 55 hands against him, and he's only played 6 percent(meaning about 3 hands), you think the fact that you've never seen him bet before in those 3 hands is enough to warrant folding an overpair? I think that there's a good chance that you're beaten, but I check call down here, your sample size isnt nearly large enough to make strong reads about his postflop play.

[Dave G.]

I check/fold the turn. 55 hands is plenty large enough a sample to figure out that someone only ever bets/raises when they have some kind of monster.

I call the flop as you did, but folding is close. You don't have enough direct odds to chase your T (and you must assume you are behind here), so the only question is can you make up enough in implied odds if you hit your set.

You'd need to make up 13BB on the turn and river. I think that people this tight, when they finally hit a hand they deem worthy of playing, fall in love with it and push it to the max. So you may get 8 more BB out of him, but I'm not sure about the rest. MP1 is hanging around for now so maybe. It's close.

[@bsolute_luck]

call down. 55 hands might be a good amount, but 9 is top pair at this point and the pot is too big to just drop top pair with no straight/flush draws.

hell, if he's that tight, why not reraise the flop and make him decide if you have trips/2 pair. maybe he'll fold.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're probably better off 3 betting the flop to see if he caps, then you know you're done.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not like this advice. What equity do you have by 3-betting in this situation? I hope you're not one of those "just had to see if he really had it" players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been on a crusade to challenge these "raise the flop to find out where you're at" posts this week...apparantly unsuccessfuly. I don't want to explain why it's a ridiculous idea again; if people want to play that way it's fine with me.

[PokerProdigy]

I still like a raise on the flop, because he may have top pair top kicker (or something close to it like king-nine) so this may be a value bet. And if it's not a value bet (meaning you don't have the best hand), he'll re-raise the flop or fire out on the turn, in which case your flop raise has got you information about where you're at. So basically you have two reasons (in order of importance) to raise the flop 1) your flop raise is basically for value, and 2) will also gain information.

[PokerProdigy]

[ QUOTE ]
I still like a raise on the flop, because he may have top pair top kicker (or something close to it like king-nine) so this may be a value bet. And if it's not a value bet (meaning you don't have the best hand), he'll re-raise the flop or fire out on the turn, in which case your flop raise has got you information about where you're at. So basically you have two reasons (in order of importance) to raise the flop 1) your flop raise is basically for value, and 2) will also gain information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops, I misread the situation. I thought the LP player raised the TP player, and you were in late position.

Sorry /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MrWookie47]

Completing with TT is a crime. Raise preflop, dude.

Even then, 55 hands is a somewhat small sample to consider folding an overpair. I'd be inclined to call this one down.

Edit: If this guy has only played 3-6 hands or so postflop (depending on the number of free plays out of the blinds), it is very hard to say anything for certain about his postflop tendancies. If the player is 55% VPIP, you have a lot more data and can make a more meaningful decision. With this few hands on him, I'd call him down and make a note about what he had.

Another edit: Just for the record, I don't like the SnG here. I'd check/call the turn and river instead if you're scared of this guy.

[SlantNGo]

This is the reason I don't like it. Call the flop raise (implied odds after you hit your set), but check/fold the turn.

If the villain would raise with overcards or a draw of some sort here, the stop &amp; go is fine.

[ QUOTE ]
He would never raise here with AK, AQ, AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

[djg40]

First, you should have raised pre-flop. Second, I don't fold here, no matter how tight this guy is. You have an overpair to the board, and you yourself said he will bet TPTK.

I'm not sure why you assume you are crushed, especially with no action pre-flop. Also, like others have said, 55 hands isn't really that large of a sample size. At the very least, I am check/calling down here.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 6/0/0.63 after 55 hands. He never bets except with the nuts or second or third nuts. He only calls down if he has a really good hand - at least top pair with the best or second best kicker. EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think ive ever seen him bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising this preflop. I'm not concerned (as someone was) with being behind a bigger pocket pair or 50-50 with two overcards. It's not heads up so the two overcard possibility isn't *that* awful and imagining overpairs is MUBS.

I'm also calling this one down. This guy has VPIP 3 hands, so might have made all of 10 postflop decisions. There's no way I'm worrying about nuts and monsters.

[imported_Reaction]

Grunched:

I would have raised preflop.

Given the read - I would Reraise the flop:
If he caps, I'd narrow down that range to a set and fold.
If he just calls - I'd think an overpair over your overpair and c/f the turn.

Edit Post Grunch:

I agree with the others that 55 hands is not a lot to go on. But it seems as if the OP has a little more of a read then just the stats. I'd be inclined to call down from a LPA, LAA or just a stats read.

[droolie]

Raise this pf 100% of the time for value. You likley have the best hand double it up yo! There is no reason to give BB a free look and everybody else a cheap look at the flop when you have a large equity edge. Raise it!

As far as your read of UTG+1 is concerned 55 hands is not enough to make this solid a read. He might have been cold-decked over that many hands. Your read might be dead on but you can't be sure enough yet. You have an overpair to the board you need a better read than 55 hands to fold that. There's no way I'm folding yet anyways.

Granted he probably has a set or overpair but there's 16BB in the pot. You have an overpair. You crush many hands he might be raising to protect here. It's conceivable he's value beting a draw on the flop and semi-bluffing on the turn. He could very easily have A9. 55 hands of cold deck could have him playing just about wnything out of boredom. You just don't know. Personally I want to see his hand (and a few more for that matter) before I start laying down when he bets. I check-call the turn and river unless someone else get's involved. The pot is big enough to justify calling down. If you're YHIG 10% of the time you will show a profit. I think it is.

If a scare card hits on the river and you're facing 2 or 3 bets cold I think you can fold this but unless that happens I'm seeing a showdown with my overpair.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right, if he was absolutely certain he was beat then fold to a raise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.. Yes. Fold. If you're 100% certain you're behind this is an auto-fold. There is no shame in letting a hand go on the flop to a raise on the flop. Sure you might get someone bluffing you later but who cares. You will rarely fold on the flop like this and it will only be when you are sure you are beaten. There is absolutely no sense in drawing to 2 outs.

[ QUOTE ]
Under any other circumstance (with some doubt), I think 3 betting would be correct with an overpair because hero is likely ahead (more often than not hero should be ahead here with no raise pf).

[/ QUOTE ]

No.. There is nothing wrong with jamming this flop if you think you are ahead. An overpair is a very strong hand and has a lot of equity here. You might get overcards to fold when you reraise and you can raise for value. Calling and waiting for the turn to rais eis an option but there's no garantee that UTG+1 will help protect your hand on the turn if you decide to play it that way.

[ QUOTE ]
The worst is to call the raise and bet again on the turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'll let others elaborate. He's right. The stop-n-go makes no sense here if you plan on folding to a raise. You might feel better about folding when you're more sure you're beaten but it's probably a waste of a BB. If you want to fold the turn just save the BB check/fold. If you want to be sure you're beaten you might as well invest another BB by Check calling and taking this to showdown. At least then you give yourself a chance of hitting on the river or possibly catching a bluff and dragging a very nice pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[djg40]

I still don't understand how Check/FOlding is ever correct here. There will never be a time you are certain enough that he has a higher pocket pair than you to warrant folding this hand.

Check/Call is the least Hero should do.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't understand how Check/FOlding is ever correct here. There will never be a time you are certain enough that he has a higher pocket pair than you to warrant folding this hand.

Check/Call is the least Hero should do.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are behind more than a pocket pair here. We're behind sets and two pair as well.

Now I'm not someone who succumbs to MUBS. I'm happy to call down hands which may not be good but I think there's a good chance they are. And these other possibilities are rare, I agree.

But come on... what do you think a guy who has hardly played any hands and hardly put any raises in is suddenly going gonzo with? Sure a flop raise I can disregard, but a turn raise too after the stop and go? I really don't think he's bluffing. What do you put him on?

If it smells like a cat, looks like a cat, shits like a cat... it's probably a cat.

[HajiShirazu]

You gotta pimp it up preflop, even if the guy has played 3/55 hands TT is still a favorite here (although it is not a favorite against a guy who actually only plays 6% of his hands.)
I can't see a fold against a guy who you have only seen play a few hands. It's just not possible to have that good a read (unless you did have a specific hand where he called all the way with third set on a rag flop or something.)

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right, if he was absolutely certain he was beat then fold to a raise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.. Yes. Fold. If you're 100% certain you're behind this is an auto-fold. There is no shame in letting a hand go on the flop to a raise on the flop. Sure you might get someone bluffing you later but who cares. You will rarely fold on the flop like this and it will only be when you are sure you are beaten. There is absolutely no sense in drawing to 2 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, getting 16:1 coming back to you, with another player likely to call to close the action, a reasonable argument can be made for taking one off for that 2-outer. Given that villain looks rocky, you may not get tons of action from him, but there is a cold-donking donk on a 943 rainbow board and another donk donking around, giving you more to work with.

[DeadRed]

If he has only seen 3/55 flops, I think one issue is that you need more information on his play. To that end, if you think he's so snug, I like check/calling down after his raise. It does seem passive, but if you're really baffled by his play, see his cards for as cheap as you can. "Just to see what he has" is not a play I advocate often, but with relatively little information, since this is the first time he's shown aggression, this information could be very valuable in the future.