Flopped 2 pair, now what?

[Misfire]

boilerkatierx is at seat 1 with 3205.
TBaller247 is at seat 4 with 3690.
herrng is at seat 5 with 3135.
jemediah is at seat 6 with 1115.
Misfire is at seat 7 with 1745.
Stiggo is at seat 9 with 2110.
The button is at seat 5.

jemediah posts the small blind of 50.
Misfire posts the big blind of 100.

boilerkatierx: -- --
TBaller247: -- --
herrng: -- --
jemediah: -- --
Misfire: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Stiggo: -- --

Pre-flop:

Stiggo calls. boilerkatierx calls. TBaller247
calls. herrng folds. jemediah calls. Misfire
checks.

Flop (board: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif):

jemediah checks. Misfire bets 100. Stiggo calls.
boilerkatierx calls. TBaller247 raises to 1000.
jemediah folds. Misfire...

[liucipher]

I'm a n00b, so I'm just giving my own opinion before some experts chime in, mainly because I'm curious to see if I'm thinking correctly. This is probably buy-in dependent, but isn't this pretty much a push back all-in?

1.) AA and QQ are unlikely, since I don't see a big stack limping from CO with that given how crowded the pot was pre-flop. AQ is possible, but I would say less likely for the same reason.

2.) 44 is a possible hand, but you have to think that there are only 2 4's left in the deck ...

3.) AJ, AT, or A9 are possibilities (though I'd imagine a bigstack with AJ is going raise in position preflop). These hands feel more likely given the massive reraise, probably to chase out flush drawers.

4.) a big draw is possible (KsJs, KsTs, TsJs) and in this case you have to push and hope to dodge bullets.

I mean, it feels to me like a A + strong kicker doesn't like all this silly minbetting and wants to kill the action. Also, isn't this what you wanted w/ your 100 bet - to get some calls and a reraise that you could push back at?

[Maulik]

It seems to me that this pot has become 5 handed. With this flop 2 spades, I'd be pushing myself allin, hoping to take down t500 immediately.

[TruFloridaGator]

Yup.

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that this pot has become 5 handed. With this flop 2 spades, I'd be pushing myself allin, hoping to take down t500 immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well poo. I chickened out and folded this, thinking a) I hadn't seen anyone do anything absolutely crazy without a good hand, and b) I still had plenty of chips to play with. The other guy folded too and villan mucked. In the chat window the other folder said he had KQ and villan had AT.

[prepotency]

I'm pushing here. I'm putting the big raiser on either A with a reasonable kicker or a spade draw. No way you're behind, go all in. If he has a set, oh well, if not, you're getting paid and coasting into the money. What did he end up having?

[JP Rocks]

You simply cant fold here. Most likely he had a flush draw, in which case he is looking at 8 outs (you have the 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif), if he had a straight draw, some of his outs were probably already gone seeing as the pot was 5 handed. Either way, you are a big favorite, and you need to get all of your chips, and hopefully all of someone elses, into the pot.

[The T.A.]

I'm pushing too.

Now tell me why you bet out 100 into a 500 pot on the flop? If someone flat calls behind you (and two people did), they're getting great odds to draw to their flush, and you've just made the mistake of giving away your pot.

[beeyjay]

You're flop bet is way too small. I hoped that you knew this and were doing it because the big stack had been swinging his chips around and you were expecting a big raise just like you got to push over the top of.

Starting with the flop bet. You have to bet the pot here. You have a butter hand that is in at best questionable shape if another spade comes out. I'm guessing the buyin here is not high. In which case I don't necessarily dislike a push on this flop. Otherwise bet the pot. If he comes over the top when you bet the pot then hes coming over strength at least instead of making a big raise into total weakness. At this point you think about folding and then call because of the thinking the original responder laid out. If he doesnt come over the top and you get a caller push any non spade turn.

[DasLeben]

Pot the flop, push to a reraise. That's my line.

[Nowhere Man]

Push the flop, the point of the t100 bet was to get a weaker hand to come over the top, right?

[john_]

unless its a uber-tight player making the raise this is an instant call...

[ripped]

Why am I the only 1 that thinks call the flop raise and if the spade misses the turn move in? I dont know why everyone wants to push right on the flop. Pushing in gives you no outs. Wait till the turn, see if the flush card comes and then put him to the test for the all in. People will fold the spade draw more with 1 card to come than 2.

Then you have the other option that if you only call the flop he thinks you're weak. On the turn of you move in you really have him baffled.

Am I wrong for thinking/playing this way?

[john_]

This has its problems though...

What do you do when a spade turns? If you check and he all in's with AK,AJ,etc. and you fold you've lost a ton of chips you didn't have to because a scary card came up. Also, with one card to come them calling an all in with their spade draw isn't that wrong given all the chips already in the pot.

Plus, since you have one of the spades their draw does worse than it otherwise would.

[ripped]

Sorry about the grammar. I really should avoid posting when tired or maybe even just proofread alittle?..

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
You simply cant fold here. Most likely he had a flush draw, in which case he is looking at 8 outs (you have the 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif), if he had a straight draw, some of his outs were probably already gone seeing as the pot was 5 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right that I should have pushed. Everyone has made the case quite effectively. I don't think, however, that having 5 players in the pot does anything to hurt his straight draw because their cards, which we can't see, are just as random as those left in the deck.

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
You're flop bet is way too small. I hoped that you knew this and were doing it because the big stack had been swinging his chips around and you were expecting a big raise just like you got to push over the top of.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking on the 100 bet was to get a raise from an ace. I was in early position, and with that many players in the pot, I figured someone had an ace (and would want to cut the pot odds of someone on a flush draw). Like i said, nobody had done anything crazy yet, so I didn't expect a raise this big with just an ace.

[ QUOTE ]
Starting with the flop bet. You have to bet the pot here. You have a butter hand that is in at best questionable shape if another spade comes out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing the buyin here is not high. In which case I don't necessarily dislike a push on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, this was only a $5 game. I started playing SNG's w/ a $20 bankroll so I'm playing the cheap games until I build up my roll and my skills (i.e. until I stop making stupid folds like this).

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise bet the pot. If he comes over the top when you bet the pot then hes coming over strength at least instead of making a big raise into total weakness. At this point you think about folding and then call because of the thinking the original responder laid out. If he doesnt come over the top and you get a caller push any non spade turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks everyone!

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
Why am I the only 1 that thinks call the flop raise and if the spade misses the turn move in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't I be pot committed after calling? It sure doesn't leave me very many chips.