My favorite 6-max hand - playing against posters

[magic_man]

UTG is one of my favorite chase-to-the-river buddies.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $5. MP posts a blind of $5. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG (poster) checks, MP (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, , MP times out (is all-in), CO folds.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (7.70 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.70 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has Jh 5h (high card, ace).
MP has 9d 6s (high card, ace).
Hero has 2c 2h (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins 7.70 BB. </font>

~MagicMan

[BreakEvenPlayer]

I never understand why people post hands that they played perfectly.

[rtucker5]

[ QUOTE ]
I never understand why people post hands that they played perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think hero played this hand perfectly, please give your screenname because I want to play against you.

[Jeff W]

Breakevenplayer's screen name is Lakerman__ .

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
Breakevenplayer's screen name is Lakerman__

[/ QUOTE ]

nh, though he also goes by PimPom! in some circles I hear.

[Justin A]

Anyone else think the PF raise sucks?

[Tru]

I think the preflop raise sucks. 22 plays terribly in a multiway pot (unless you hit trips) and as these are new posters, there's no indication that they will fold to the preflop raise. So you can't be raising for value and you also can't be raising with any hope of good fold equity. When they don't fold, you have no idea who's willing to call down with 3rd pair.

[Jeff W]

Yes, the pre flop raise sucks. This is the clearest limp imaginable.

[magic_man]

I knew there would be contention about this, which is half the reason I posted it. I raised partly because I thought it would be funny if all the posters folded, and partly because I thought it was about 99% likely that 22 was the best hand. What about making the pot larger to tie players on with bottom pair and worse hands when you hit a set? Raising here is not my standard play, but I really don't think that this is the "clearest limp imaginable." Thoughts?

~MagicMan

[kurosh]

99% likely that 22 was the best hand? Are you serious? You need to look at some hot/cold simulations.

[Trix]

Limp preflop.

Posters should make you more inclined to play, but less inclined to steal, as there are more money in the pot, but also more people to defend.

[RunDownHouse]

22 may very well have been the best hand preflop, but you'll certainly have to deal with 5 overcards on the board the vast majority of the time you even make it to the river.

[magic_man]

[ QUOTE ]
What about making the pot larger to tie players on with bottom pair and worse hands when you hit a set?

[/ QUOTE ]


~MagicMan

[RunDownHouse]

Not worth it, especially if these guys are donks who love to call anyways, as all the posting likely indicates. I doubt you'll need to "tie" the average player to the pot, as they'll have two live overs and will probably peel anyways.

I think you're much better off messing around with check/raises and what not to get value when you hit your set than you are trying to get value pf.

[IlliniRyRy]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (9.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, , MP times out (is all-in)

MP has 9d 6s (high card, ace).


[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient. If this guy did this on purpose, I'd want to slice his eyeballs out.

[kurosh]

Wtf? No, I can pretty much guarantee you 22 was not the best hand and didn't have an equity edge PF. I'm being very generous here as these two hands are taking each other's straight outs but still:

1,184,331,456 games 2.375 secs 498,665,876 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 32.1714 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { 22 }
Hand 2: 35.7054 % [ 00.35 00.01 ] { 74o }
Hand 3: 32.1233 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { 83o }


---


and if anyone has a suited connector:

41,095,296 games 0.079 secs 520,193,620 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 48.6539 % [ 00.47 00.02 ] { 22 }
Hand 2: 51.3461 % [ 00.50 00.02 ] { 54s }


Please don't post misleading facts when you have no idea what you're talking about.

[RunDownHouse]

/shrug Clearly the numbers will change with the number of hands that are out there. Hero might have gotten a fold out of the 74o. He might not have. No way of knowing, and just another reason not to raise preflop.

I think saying I have no idea what I'm talking about - based only on the statement, "22 might have been best pf" - is pretty harsh, especially considering the rest of my two posts dealt with why 22 being best/not being best pf is largely a moot point.

Try not to get so riled up next time, mmkay?

[krishanleong]

I think the idea is if both players are all in preflop, a small pocket pair generally has better than 50% equity against a single opponent. The problem is as Kurosh points out, the hand blows postflop when every card that doesn't set you is an overcard.

Krishan

[kurosh]

No, it's a very simple concept and it's the only one I'm addressing. I don't care who says it. You are up against 5 random hands. 3 of them are apparently below average. Against ONE hand, unless it's 2x, you have, at best, around a 1-3% equity edge. Multiway, there is no chance in hell you have an equity edge. You, and whoever agrees with you, had it wrong and I am correcting it.

[RunDownHouse]

kurosh,

I think we're just getting our lines crossed, as krishan pointed out. How about if I clarified my original post to say:
[ QUOTE ]
22 may very well have been the best single hand preflop, but you'll certainly have to deal with 5 overcards on the board the vast majority of the time you even make it to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty tangential, semantic argument to get involved in and - seemingly - angry about. Are we done yet?

[kurosh]

NO! It's not the best single hand PF either. This is the last post I'm making in this thread. I don't know how much simpler to make it than this. If you don't understand this, you should quit poker if you like money.
[ QUOTE ]

41,095,296 games 0.062 secs 662,827,354 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 49.0904 % [ 00.48 00.01 ] { 22 }
Hand 2: 50.9096 % [ 00.50 00.01 ] { 85s }


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
41,095,296 games 0.093 secs 441,884,903 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 48.6539 % [ 00.47 00.02 ] { 22 }
Hand 2: 51.3461 % [ 00.50 00.02 ] { 54s }


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
41,095,296 games 0.063 secs 652,306,285 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 49.7734 % [ 00.48 00.02 ] { 22 }
Hand 2: 50.2266 % [ 00.48 00.02 ] { 53s }


[/ QUOTE ]

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was about 99% likely that 22 was the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, 22 does not have 25% equity against 3 random hands. Therefore, it is not the best hand. In Omaha Hi, is 2222 the best hand HU against 8765?

[ QUOTE ]
What about making the pot larger to tie players on with bottom pair and worse hands when you hit a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're misapplying concepts from HEPFAP. Re-read the pre flop section.

[magic_man]

[ QUOTE ]
You're misapplying concepts from HEPFAP

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, this is only misapplying the "Make a big pot w/ hands that can flop well" concept if you think that your opponents will all call with hands that are drawing dead or close to dead on the flop even if the pot is small. Do you think this is true, and that therefore raising is definitely wrong?

~MagicMan

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
your opponents will all call with hands that are drawing dead or close to dead on the flop even if the pot is small. Do you think this is true, and that therefore raising is definitely wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Also, IIRC, HEPFAP only recommends this play when you have more opponents(5 I think)? Anyway, the play sucks in modern games no matter what HEPFAP has to say.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes.

Also, IIRC, HEPFAP only recommends this play when you have more opponents(5 I think)? Anyway, the play sucks in modern games no matter what HEPFAP has to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty standard move at 2/4 and 3/6. It doesn't come up often but it's standard to raise any pp on the button with 4-6 limpers.

Krishan

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]

It's standard to raise and pp on the button with 4-6 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If it is standard, it shouldn't be.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's standard to raise and pp on the button with 4-6 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If it is standard, it shouldn't be.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it should be. If you run TTH sims for a mix of opponents with 22 on the button, the EV of calling is about .08 and the EV of raise is about .24. It's a pretty remarkable difference.

The extra value comes from either, getting a 4th chance at hitting your set when everyone checks to you on the flop or tying people with 1 pair hands (that are drawing dead) to the pot when you hit your set.

Krishan

[magic_man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's standard to raise and pp on the button with 4-6 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If it is standard, it shouldn't be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It's true that many players nowadays will call the flop with one overcard or less, but many of them drop off on the turn. Building a large pot preflop encourages them to stick around on the turn &amp; river with even-worse-than-usual hands.

~MagicMan

[Nate tha' Great]

Bet the river for bluffing equity.

[magic_man]

[ QUOTE ]
getting a 4th chance at hitting your set when everyone checks to you on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely forgot about this in the post, but it's obviously important. I chose to bet the flop when they checked to me, because:
a) I thought some players might fold with live outs, getting correct odds to draw.
b) I thought everyone would check to me on the turn, allowing me to check and try to catch a 2 on the river.
c) I thought I could have the best hand.

~MagicMan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
b) I thought everyone would check to me on the turn, allowing me to check and try to catch a 2 on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a better plan than the one you implemented. Still not good though because the pot size is too small.

Krishan

[BreakEvenPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think hero played this hand perfectly, please give your screenname because I want to play against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being sarcastic. At least the hand has been discussed though.

[TomBrooks]

I think I see the idea with 22 in this hand.

I have a question related to this scenario though. It doesn't comes up that often that you have three posters, but the fact that you have four and a half random hands in this hand makes for an interesting problem. Perhaps just for theoretical purposes.

What size pocket pair would you want to justify a preflop raise against the Blinds and three posters who limped?