QTo ~ Salvaging a Bad Call with QTo [Archive]

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Shalara

04-21-2005, 11:47 AM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Shalara is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Shalara calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 folds, Shalara calls.

The table was very loose and somewhat aggressive, generally having at least 6 players to a flop, and raised every 4 hands or so. There was more check-raising here than I usually see, and it seemed to me there were more bluffs too.

I was multi-tabling, so my reads aren't as precise as I would like, but here is what I noticed about the players:

UTG seemed more solid than most, staying out of most hands. I pegged him as tight, but didn't see enough to gauge passive/aggressiveness.

Button seemed laggy.

I don't recall anything of note about the other two.

 I realized that I'd made a mistake by calling as soon as I had done it. Once it was raised, I wasn't certain if I should call that. All things seeming equal at the moment, I just picked something and did it.

Flop: (9.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Shalara checks, Button checks.

 I (briefly) considered value-betting here. I figured button would raise if I bet, but I wasn't sure if the people behind him would call or fold. Semi-bluffing no good, as I was sure there was no way *everyone* would fold. Thus the check. Good or bad?

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Shalara calls, Button raises, BB folds, UTG calls, Shalara 3-bets, Button calls, UTG calls.

 When the button checked behind on the flop (an aggressive player normally), I figured either he missed it eight ways from Sunday, or he was planning on popping the turn. If he missed though, I expect he still would have tried a flop bet, given his position. So I figured he'd made his hand on the flop, and would be raising the turn, when the limits double. Thought this was a good opportunity for that limp-reraise deal. What do you think? 

River: (13.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Shalara bets, Button calls, UTG raises, Shalara calls, Button calls.

 I did not like that check-raise. Maybe he'd hit a flush, maybe a set or two pair. Whether he's a TAG or a TAP, it didn't look like a good sign. Still, I figured it was worth a call, at nearly 20BB... 

Final Pot: 19.75 BB

Did I play this okay?

SCfuji

04-21-2005, 11:52 AM

pf fine
flop is fine - the pf raise is to your immediate left
turn is fine
river i go 4 bets cuz i like variance like that

MrWookie47

04-21-2005, 12:01 PM

The way you read the button makes you look like a genius on the turn, but I don't know how accurately you could actually make that read so as to risk all the value you'd be giving away if you're wrong. This to me looks something like a case of FPS that worked out. I think I'll cast a vote for just playing it in a straightforward manner (bet the flop, bet/raise the turn, call the river check/raise).

Edit: Actually, since the PFR was on your immediate left, looking for the check/raise on the flop is better. I'm not convinced about the turn, however.

Isura

04-21-2005, 12:02 PM

I'd fold preflop if the game is so aggressive that I think there's a good chance I have to pay 2 bets to see the flop. Flop is good. No need to eliminate players. Check-raise is a good idea on the flop if button bets and 2 others call. I would 3-bet the river. You're getting paid off by worst hands a lot here.

SCfuji

04-21-2005, 12:02 PM

oh i just noticed the call/reraise. dont let this be your standard play. raise the turn.

MechanoMan

04-21-2005, 12:16 PM

<GRUNCHING>

I fold QTo in MP. But I think if you do decide to limp you need to be willing to call when it's one back to you. I bet this flop for value. You'll make your straight 1/3 of the time (correct me if I'm wrong).

</GRUNCHING>

Redd

04-21-2005, 12:29 PM

IMO the flop limp is fine.

Flop is very good, if you're checking with the intention of raising a bet from the PFR.

Turn seems too fancy to me. If button checking the flop behind is a sure thing he'll bet the turn you could try it, but I'd need a really strong read to risk losing a raise with the nuts.

Meh, I'd probably just call the river check-raise too (btw, there's no way I'd consider folding here). I can't really think of any hands that a solid player would play like this though - he wouldn't call UTG with any hand that 2-pairs a 3, he'd cap the turn with a set, and he wouldn't semibluff his turned heart draw into 3 players.

I'm thinking this is a flush enough times to justify not raising, but some others want to cap it. What hands do you guys put UTG on here?

Isura

04-21-2005, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
<GRUNCHING>

I fold QTo in MP. But I think if you do decide to limp you need to be willing to call when it's one back to you. I bet this flop for value. You'll make your straight 1/3 of the time (correct me if I'm wrong).

</GRUNCHING>

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is that the preflop raiser is immediately to your left. That's why most people consider the check raise to be the better play (but don't check raise if it gets HU). If you can get 1 or 2 others to call the button's flop bet with weak hands, you can then trap them for 2+ bets and gain value on your OESD. This also will tie them to the pot more, so you're getting paid off more when you hit (the pot will be big enough for them to pay off).

MechanoMan

04-21-2005, 02:43 PM

Thanks, that makes sense. Is this the standard line to take? Unless maybe we have a read on the Button as too passive for this play to work?

jba

04-21-2005, 02:53 PM

this is a blind post

I probably would have bet the flop but I understand your reasoning. It's not awful that it checked through.

I would have raised the turn. sounds like you had a good read, but I would probably still raise here.

if UTG has a flush it's a freak one. set seems much more likely. I would personally come over and kick your ass if you folded here.

davelin

04-21-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have bet the flop but I understand your reasoning. It's not awful that it checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting on the flop would be a clear mistake. You don't want it to be raised and force the field with two.

VBM

04-21-2005, 03:02 PM

i'm starting to realize that poker's a game where a contrarian approach is frequently rewarded. if the table is running loose & aggressive, it helps to take a tighter, more passive (esp. OOP) approach.

once you call PF, you must call the raise. i'd only consider folding if it was 2 back to you.

i would raise this turn, as you have a very strong hand and you need to value-bet the potential flush draws behind you, giving them poorer odds (raising presents 7.75:2, whereas calling will give them 6.75:1) mind you, with implied odds, they're still correct to call either way, but there's nothing you can do except plan a strategy for when a flush card rivers and when it doesn't.

if you believe a flush draw *may* have gotten there by the river, i wouldn't bet out, but once you do, you also should call the raise, but it looks like UTG rivered a flush.

gvibes

04-21-2005, 03:33 PM

I consider myself fairly loose (I'm like 18.5/11 at 1/2, I think I was ~21/13 at .5/1), and I don't limp this preflop.

If I play it, I raise, and that would only be if the limpers are really loose, and if the players acting behind aren't too loose (nothing like iso-raising with marginal hands, then getting cold-called all the way to the button).

@bsolute_luck

04-21-2005, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG seemed more solid than most, staying out of most hands. I pegged him as tight, but didn't see enough to gauge passive/aggressiveness.

[/ QUOTE ]

so why are we limping with QTo MP? we're hoping for the miracle hand, which you got, but then you get result-oriented. a tight player has limped UTG. if your read is right, then you're beat most hands and you'll end up paying more when you get a piece of the flop then is worth it.

i don't understand people saying "preflop is fine"

[ QUOTE ]
I was multi-tabling, so my reads aren't as precise as I would like

[/ QUOTE ] so why are we limping QTo when it is tough to play WITH reads much less with just okay reads?

Isura

04-21-2005, 05:57 PM

I'm like 20/11 at 1/2 and I fold this hand preflop.

Shalara

04-21-2005, 11:25 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Shalara is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Shalara calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 folds, Shalara calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Shalara checks, Button checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Shalara calls, Button raises, BB folds, UTG calls, Shalara 3-bets, Button calls, UTG calls.

River: (13.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Shalara bets, Button calls, UTG raises, Shalara calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 19.75 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ah Jh (flush, ace high).
Shalara has Tc Qs (straight, king high).
Button has Kd Ad (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins 19.75 BB. 

[ QUOTE ]
I realized that I'd made a mistake by calling as soon as I had done it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My kids chose that very moment to turn from angelic children into howling demons. I was momentarily distracted when I accidently called. I wasn't too happy when I realized what I'd done. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif QTo, OOP, at a fairly aggressive table. Ack!

From that point on, I put what I felt was a bad call out of my mind, and tried to focus on the play of the hand.

I really like the idea of check-raising the flop if the button bet and there were still two callers. Must admit it didn't occur to me at the time; my main reason for not betting was fear that I might end up heads-up and re-raised or somesuch. The button was fairly aggressive.

I did know I was a huge favorite on the turn, and felt a flush draw unlikely. *If* there was one, I would still win this hand most of the time so I wanted to jam the pot. The real question was how best to do so.

I do make that turn play on single table games when I have a good solid read on my opponents. But I didn't have my full attention on one game this time. I think the general consensus is that I should have raised the turn. Maybe so. I've been thinking a lot about the comments on that play in particular, both as far as potential EV loss and giving better odds for draws. I'll think about this one some more.

As for the river, when a tight player like that check-raises me, I am pretty sure I've been clocked. Nonetheless, I really have to call.

Thanks for the comments, they are always welcome!