The first three rounds

[TheCat]

The first three rounds present a dilemma, you should try and accumulate chips if you can but you don’t want to risk short stacking yourself.

Are the best players entering the pot if they can get in cheaply with almost anything hoping to hit the flop? Especially so in the first round, if you can get in for 15 you might hit two pair with any two cards and double up.
However if I hit something good but not great, like TPTK, I’m not calling any big raises from anyone no matter how loose. My edge in this games comes when blind stealing begins so why go out early if you don’t have to.

Any thoughts?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
The first three rounds present a dilemma, you should try and accumulate chips if you can but you don’t want to risk short stacking yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

your statement up there should be enough for you to figure out what kinds of hands you should actually be playing in the early levels.

[ QUOTE ]
Are the best players entering the pot if they can get in cheaply with almost anything hoping to hit the flop? Especially so in the first round, if you can get in for 15 you might hit two pair with any two cards and double up.

[/ QUOTE ]

no

[ QUOTE ]
However if I hit something good but not great, like TPTK, I’m not calling any big raises from anyone no matter how loose. My edge in this games comes when blind stealing begins so why go out early if you don’t have to.

Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

that is wrong, and has been discussed a lot, especially recently by adanthar, who has made it one of his pet issues.

citanul

[shejk]

Two pairs aren't much good. They'll bust you pretty often when you do flop them. Better play your quality hands only, unless you can find a golden opportunity.

[pipes]

In the first 3 levels, I play tight both pre and post flop. Calling preflop with anything adds up fast, especially if you are forced to call a few min-raises.

Hands I usually play
1) Any pair
2) Axs
3) Two suited broadways (most 2 broadways for that matter)
4) Suited connectors
5) Few unsuited connectors such as JTo and T9o

But I agree, TPTK is not a hand to go down with in level 1 even if get a read that your opponents are loose and/or overvalue their hands.

Some of your edge comes from not doing anything stupid early on and simply being around for the all-in fest on the bubble.

[TheCat]

[ QUOTE ]
that is wrong, and has been discussed a lot, especially recently by adanthar, who has made it one of his pet issues.


[/ QUOTE ]

Could you post a link to that thread please. I'd be very interested to read it.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The first three rounds present a dilemma, you should try and accumulate chips if you can but you don’t want to risk short stacking yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

your statement up there should be enough for you to figure out what kinds of hands you should actually be playing in the early levels.

[ QUOTE ]
Are the best players entering the pot if they can get in cheaply with almost anything hoping to hit the flop? Especially so in the first round, if you can get in for 15 you might hit two pair with any two cards and double up.

[/ QUOTE ]

no

[ QUOTE ]
However if I hit something good but not great, like TPTK, I’m not calling any big raises from anyone no matter how loose. My edge in this games comes when blind stealing begins so why go out early if you don’t have to.

Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

that is wrong, and has been discussed a lot, especially recently by adanthar, who has made it one of his pet issues.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

What is extremely wrong with treading carefully with TPTK early on? Especially in multiway pots. The pots are not that big so you are not making a huge mistake by folding if you face some heat.

This is why the implied odds on hands such as pocket pairs are through the roof if even 2+2ers are going to the felt on level 1 with one pair.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that is wrong, and has been discussed a lot, especially recently by adanthar, who has made it one of his pet issues.


[/ QUOTE ]

Could you post a link to that thread please. I'd be very interested to read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

er, nah, you can find it. it's a thread started by adanthar, recently, called something like "i'm only a coinflip, so i fold."

citanul

[ripped]

You are playing WAYYY to many hands. My question to you is this..Why would you play Axs or hands like JTo? The only hands they are going to win you are straights and flushes and will only get you in to chasing trouble when you flop open enders and 4 flushes. You said you agree with tossing TPTK but you are playing horrible hands. The first 3 rounds you should be playing tight as all hell and limping a HELL of alot. I dont even raise with TT or JJ in these rounds anymore. I limp to see a flop and fold when I miss.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
In the first 3 levels, I play tight both pre and post flop. Calling preflop with anything adds up fast, especially if you are forced to call a few min-raises.

Hands I usually play
1) Any pair
2) Axs
3) Two suited broadways (most 2 broadways for that matter)
4) Suited connectors
5) Few unsuited connectors such as JTo and T9o


[/ QUOTE ]

That's nowhere near tight.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
What is extremely wrong with treading carefully with TPTK early on? Especially in multiway pots. The pots are not that big so you are not making a huge mistake by folding if you face some heat.

This is why the implied odds on hands such as pocket pairs are through the roof if even 2+2ers are going to the felt on level 1 with one pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're adding more stipulations to the scenario than were implied. you are clearly right that if you have say, A7 on a 7xx board, and you're facing big bets, you should be gone. however, too many people think that they should fold AK on Kxx boards for instance facing heat 2 or 3 way. that is bad.

getting out of the way of a donkey because you think there's a chance you could bust, and "your edge comes later, not earlier" is a bit out of line. you should have an edge on your opponents at all stages of the game.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the first 3 levels, I play tight both pre and post flop. Calling preflop with anything adds up fast, especially if you are forced to call a few min-raises.

Hands I usually play
1) Any pair
2) Axs
3) Two suited broadways (most 2 broadways for that matter)
4) Suited connectors
5) Few unsuited connectors such as JTo and T9o


[/ QUOTE ]

That's nowhere near tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

what he said.

[TheCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of your edge comes from not doing anything stupid early on and simply being around for the all-in fest on the bubble.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think most of your edge comes from not doing anything stupid early on.

[gasgod]

Outside the blinds, there's a good chance I will not play any hand during levels 1-3. I keep repeating to myself Sklansky's observation that poker begins as a struggle for the blinds and antes.

GG

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]
The first 3 rounds you should be playing tight as all hell and limping a HELL of alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Shouldn't you be 'playing tight as all hell' and FOLDING a hell of a lot?

[ QUOTE ]
I dont even raise with TT or JJ in these rounds anymore. I limp to see a flop and fold when I miss.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't this be position dependant? Are you going to open limp in CO+1 with JJ? I'm not, even in the early rounds.

[citanul]

maybe he thinks that a HELL of a lot means very little, whereas the commonly used hell of a lot would mean a whole lot?

citanul

[ripped]

THe first thing I meant limping with semi strong hands like AQ and KQs. Open raising with JJ in the CO first in of course. I guess I should have clearified what I was trying to say but I also should have been in bed about 5 hours ago.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the first 3 levels, I play tight both pre and post flop. Calling preflop with anything adds up fast, especially if you are forced to call a few min-raises.

Hands I usually play
1) Any pair
2) Axs
3) Two suited broadways (most 2 broadways for that matter)
4) Suited connectors
5) Few unsuited connectors such as JTo and T9o


[/ QUOTE ]

That's nowhere near tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note, I said usually play.
1) pairs are a no brainer
2) Axs is fine, especially if you are in late. Some value here is also in flopping 2 pair because the ace is a common card to pair up.
3) I'm playing hands like KQs, QJs, and KJs early on.
4) JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s if I'm in late with a least a couple of limpers
5) JTo and T9o only in late with many many limpers if I'm feeling lucky

The above list was meant to illustrate the entire possible universe of level 1 hands.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
In the first 3 levels, I play tight both pre and post flop. Calling preflop with anything adds up fast, especially if you are forced to call a few min-raises.

Hands I usually play
1) Any pair
2) Axs
3) Two suited broadways (most 2 broadways for that matter)
4) Suited connectors
5) Few unsuited connectors such as JTo and T9o



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's nowhere near tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is laughable.

Applicable definition of tight:
"used of persons or behavior; characterized by or indicative of lack of generosity"

That is a generous list of ways to leak chips early in a SitNGo.

[ripped]

pairs are a no brainer? The only hands I play here are 99 and up as well as KQs. The rest of those hands are crap. That is very loose to be playing all those hands. I think you have some holes to fix in your game.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the first 3 levels, I play tight both pre and post flop. Calling preflop with anything adds up fast, especially if you are forced to call a few min-raises.

Hands I usually play
1) Any pair
2) Axs
3) Two suited broadways (most 2 broadways for that matter)
4) Suited connectors
5) Few unsuited connectors such as JTo and T9o


[/ QUOTE ]

That's nowhere near tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note, I said usually play.
1) pairs are a no brainer
2) Axs is fine, especially if you are in late. Some value here is also in flopping 2 pair because the ace is a common card to pair up.
3) I'm playing hands like KQs, QJs, and KJs early on.
4) JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s if I'm in late with a least a couple of limpers
5) JTo and T9o only in late with many many limpers if I'm feeling lucky

The above list was meant to illustrate the entire possible universe of level 1 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note, he said that's nowhere near tight. He was right, even with your newfound provisos.

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]

Note, I said usually play.
1) pairs are a no brainer
2) Axs is fine, especially if you are in late. Some value here is also in flopping 2 pair because the ace is a common card to pair up.
3) I'm playing hands like KQs, QJs, and KJs early on.
4) JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s if I'm in late with a least a couple of limpers
5) JTo and T9o only in late with many many limpers if I'm feeling lucky

The above list was meant to illustrate the entire possible universe of level 1 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's all fine and dandy but I think most people would still say you are way, WAY too loose for the first few levels. Most of the time you are just wasting a few chips, occasionally you'll end up losing a lot, and rarely you'll make a big hand and double up.

The real issue is that the majority of these hands (broadway, connectors) are going to land you in situations where you have to make hard decisions against mostly non-rational opponents. This is a bad place to be.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
pairs are a no brainer? The only hands I play here are 99 and up as well as KQs. The rest of those hands are crap. That is very loose to be playing all those hands. I think you have some holes to fix in your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

he has holes in his game, but you should be playing all pairs if you can play them cheaply.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
The only hands I play here are 99 and up as well as KQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty funny, I think you're too tight and loose at the same time.

KQs is a trap hand. And minimally, 66-88 have the same set value as 99. If you're going to play 99 for set value, then there's no reason to exclude many of the lower pairs.

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]
pairs are a no brainer? The only hands I play here are 99 and up as well as KQs. The rest of those hands are crap. That is very loose to be playing all those hands. I think you have some holes to fix in your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lower pairs are fine with limpers for set value only. You stand to take a LOT of chips if you hit, and it's very, very easy to get off of 66 if the flop doesn't hit you.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
pairs are a no brainer? The only hands I play here are 99 and up as well as KQs. The rest of those hands are crap. That is very loose to be playing all those hands. I think you have some holes to fix in your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pairs are an absolute no brainer. I tripled up by flopping a set of 4s against two players with AA and QQ the other night.

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]
Pairs are an absolute no brainer. I tripled up by flopping a set of 4s against two players with AA and QQ the other night.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real question is how in the world did you get to a flop with someone with AA and QQ? Both of them should have had all their chips in and you should have folded. If they let you in cheap with 44, they got what they deserved.

[ripped]

I have to ask..How much did you call for to see your set of 4's? I know for a fact that either QQ or AA raised a bunch preflop making calling any sort of big raise wrong.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pairs are a no brainer? The only hands I play here are 99 and up as well as KQs. The rest of those hands are crap. That is very loose to be playing all those hands. I think you have some holes to fix in your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pairs are an absolute no brainer. I tripled up by flopping a set of 4s against two players with AA and QQ the other night.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, you have now won the title of "mr results oriented thinking." perhaps one day, someone will come and unseed you, or you will be allowed to abdicate that throne, but til then - wow.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I know for a fact that either QQ or AA raised a bunch preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

were you at the table? then no, you don't.

editted to add: it's also very possible he could have cold called a small raise and that the qq player or aa player decided to not reraise. calling a small raise is quite all right.

[ripped]

I play 9's for simple fact that they can actually be an overpair with some rag flop and also the possible set over set is not as great with 9's than say 6's or under.

[citanul]

ok, so that's why you play 9s, i guess what's necessary is an explanation of why you don't play 2s.

[ripped]

Calling a small raise is quite alright? Even if you are the first person to call? WHy would you call for a 2-1 pot? How do you know that you are going to get any callers behind you to make the call proper?

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the first 3 levels, I play tight both pre and post flop. Calling preflop with anything adds up fast, especially if you are forced to call a few min-raises.

Hands I usually play
1) Any pair
2) Axs
3) Two suited broadways (most 2 broadways for that matter)
4) Suited connectors
5) Few unsuited connectors such as JTo and T9o



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's nowhere near tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is laughable.

Applicable definition of tight:
"used of persons or behavior; characterized by or indicative of lack of generosity"

That is a generous list of ways to leak chips early in a SitNGo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting smoked here. On a personal level I think most of you guys come off as know it all aholes.

But anyhow, back to debate on the topic. My list above is basically for level 1. Level 2 I'm tightening up, I'll still play any pair and any suited broadway combo though. Level 3 I tighten up considerably.

I'm confident in my abilities not to get trapped early on. I spend most of my time in the 100s and I feel I hit enough with these speculative hands (and have people pay me off enough) to justify playing these hands.

[ripped]

Am I speaking russian? Didnt I just explain why I dont play small pairs?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling a small raise is quite alright? Even if you are the first person to call? WHy would you call for a 2-1 pot? How do you know that you are going to get any callers behind you to make the call proper?

[/ QUOTE ]

because of implied odds.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I speaking russian? Didnt I just explain why I dont play small pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

not really, you basically explained why you DO play 99. you kind of said why you don't play small ones by their differences from 99, but what i'm saying is that you have yet to supply a good reason for not playing small pairs early.

citanul

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]

I think most of your edge comes from not doing anything // early on.

[/ QUOTE ]

corrected

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pairs are an absolute no brainer. I tripled up by flopping a set of 4s against two players with AA and QQ the other night.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real question is how in the world did you get to a flop with someone with AA and QQ? Both of them should have had all their chips in and you should have folded. If they let you in cheap with 44, they got what they deserved.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a 100 game, QQ raised to 75, AA smoothcalled (big mistake). I called with 44 with the implied odds. I would have done this with only the 1,000 starting chips but I had around 1,500 so it was a complete no brainer. Flop comes J84 with 2 diamonds. Big bet, big raise, and then my all in.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pairs are a no brainer? The only hands I play here are 99 and up as well as KQs. The rest of those hands are crap. That is very loose to be playing all those hands. I think you have some holes to fix in your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pairs are an absolute no brainer. I tripled up by flopping a set of 4s against two players with AA and QQ the other night.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, you have now won the title of "mr results oriented thinking." perhaps one day, someone will come and unseed you, or you will be allowed to abdicate that throne, but til then - wow.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

God you are an azz. I just mentioned it because it happened recently and was a great hand. Fresh in my memory.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting smoked here. On a personal level I think most of you guys come off as know it all aholes.

[/ QUOTE ]

we aren't trying to "smoke" you, we're trying to make your game a WHOLE lot better in the space of one thread. on another note: i get that a lot, scuba doesn't. how's it feel scuba? still unrelated, i don't know everything, i just know this stuff. so every once in a while, perhaps instead of people flaming back, if they could stop and look at the actual advice, that would be great, but totally not expected.

[ QUOTE ]
But anyhow, back to debate on the topic. My list above is basically for level 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's too loose for level 1.

[ QUOTE ]
Level 2 I'm tightening up, I'll still play any pair and any suited broadway combo though.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's too loose for lvl 2 also.

do you actually think there is that much of a difference between lvl 1 and lvl 2 that if those other hands were right at 1 they'd be wrong at 2?

[ QUOTE ]
Level 3 I tighten up considerably.

[/ QUOTE ]

to what? i'm guessing your lvl3 standards are closer to the correct lvl1 standards than your current lvl1 standards

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confident in my abilities not to get trapped early on. I spend most of my time in the 100s and I feel I hit enough with these speculative hands (and have people pay me off enough) to justify playing these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh.

citanul

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
On a personal level I think most of you guys come off as know it all aholes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that NOBODY has come to your defense should indicate that you're probably losing the argument. Those know-it-all aholes are giving the rest of us free poker lessons. Thicken your skin and learn something.

[Voltron87]

I play: AA-TT, AQ, AK for a raise anywhere,

AJ, ATs and 99 down for a limp anywhere,

Starting in middle position if it isn't raised I will limp with KQ and KJ.

Add in QJ+ from the CO or button for a limp.

[citanul]

it wasn't a "great hand," it was some hand where you tripled up. for god's sake.

citanul

[citanul]

i think you play too loose too, but i'd like to hear what some other players think.

citanul

[davehwm]

Lvl 1&2, I limp with AJs+ in LP and probably MP, and fold AJs/AQs in EP. How's that for tight?

Also, keep in mind I'm only playing $22s so I have fewer chips to work with.

[Voltron87]

It depends on how good you are postflop. If you have no idea what you're doing (like a lot of people on here) then playing easy to play hands (AK, JJ, both pretty easy to interpret flops) will be best to avoid the tougher spots. The other type of poker I play is live, deeper stacked NL so I think I have more postflop experience than most people who play only SNGS.

[citanul]

that's quite tight.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
It depends on how good you are postflop. If you have no idea what you're doing (like a lot of people on here) then playing easy to play hands (AK, JJ, both pretty easy to interpret flops) will be best to avoid the tougher spots. The other type of poker I play is live, deeper stacked NL so I think I have more postflop experience than most people who play only SNGS.

[/ QUOTE ]

but isn't that the point, in a sng, the stacks are shallow, which means that the implied odds aren't there for limping too many hands. there should be roughly some set that is the "correct" set of hands to play, assuming you play post flop quite well. personally i think that your set is probably too big. (by just a tiny bit)

citanul

[davehwm]

[ QUOTE ]
that's quite tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and actually now that I think about it, I'm not being honest. I should be talking about AQ/AJ - I fold those in EP/MP all the time. AJs/AQs I'm usually limping from EP/MP and raising from LP.

Is it really profitable to be raising AQo from anywhere?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you play too loose too, but i'd like to hear what some other players think.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the discussion is missing some criteria that would make some things clearer. If there are 5 limpers and im on the button, Ill for sure play jts on the button. I wont play it into a light /empty pot though.

The problem also is when people talk about what hands they are playing in a vaacuum, it could be easily debated either way depending on the circumstances.

I think a problem some newer players have is differentiating between playing a hand for its implied/latent value of becoming a monster and its intrinsic value. Iow, playing 66 is fine in level I if you're getting in cheap in an unraised pot...but what some players I see do is that they continue with that hand because they decide villain doesnt have anything...this is wrong.

I am big advocate of varying play, but its important to set boundries for yourself.

[Voltron87]

well, usually I look at 56s, 78s as great hands in NL, hands I will open with, but I never play them in SNGs since drawing hands don't quite work the same in tournaments as in cash games. The worst hands I play in SNGs are QJ from the CO, and only for a limp.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On a personal level I think most of you guys come off as know it all aholes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that NOBODY has come to your defense should indicate that you're probably losing the argument. Those know-it-all aholes are giving the rest of us free poker lessons. Thicken your skin and learn something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bud, not looking for anyone to come to my defense here. Isn't it possible to give advice without being a coksucker? I do listen to people and I think I am improving my game from it. As I move up, my results are actually getting better because I am always trying to learn.

I just started SNGs 4 months ago. Not a huge sample but I have played 504 100s with (20.32 ROI and 38.10 ITM) and 288 200s with (25 ROI and 40.28 ITM). I think I'm doing a few things right, plus I'm a gentleman as well. That's a real anamoly here it seems.

[MarkD]

I'm fairly new to SNG's and have just barely started to read thsi forum (I'm mainly a limit player).

My first 3 round starters look like this (this thread has me thinking about them a lot more since maybe I'm too loose):
1. AA-QQ, AKo, AKs - I raise, limpers or raisers - I don't mind getting all of my chips in.

2. AQs, AQo. I raise first in from any position but just cold call small raises.
Caveat: From the blinds I may not raise with AQo - it's something I have been playing with a little and doing some thinking on. I am not sure what is right here. I think AQs is a raise from the blinds as well.

3. JJ-TT. I raise first in from any position (have debated limping early with TT and playing for set value but atm I raise). If faced with a raise in front of me I will sometimes reraise but usually just call and see a flop and play from there.

4. 22-99. I just limp. I also call small raises. With the bigger medium pairs I may play on without a set if the flop is good, but typically not.

5. AJs. I have been limping with this. I have also thought hard about dumping it early and only playing in late / late middle position but atm I am limping early.

6. AJo I don't play except from the blinds and posibly late position.

I think that about covers it.

[adanthar]

The post above me is pretty much 95% how I play early (I'll limp/coldcall TT-22, sometimes limp AJ/KQ, KJ-QJs, etc. in position in the same vein) with some suited connectors thrown in when I feel I have odds.

Note that the continuum of what you should raise/limp/fold PF depends a lot on your implied odds postflop - better players should, in theory, play as many cheap marginal hands as they can get away with. When I have chips on the button after 5 limpers (not that I see this happen a lot or anything, but in theory) I can limp with much weirder trash than T9o. 99% of the time, I fold.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting smoked here. On a personal level I think most of you guys come off as know it all aholes.

[/ QUOTE ]

we aren't trying to "smoke" you, we're trying to make your game a WHOLE lot better in the space of one thread. on another note: i get that a lot, scuba doesn't. how's it feel scuba? still unrelated, i don't know everything, i just know this stuff. so every once in a while, perhaps instead of people flaming back, if they could stop and look at the actual advice, that would be great, but totally not expected.

[ QUOTE ]
But anyhow, back to debate on the topic. My list above is basically for level 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's too loose for level 1.

[ QUOTE ]
Level 2 I'm tightening up, I'll still play any pair and any suited broadway combo though.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's too loose for lvl 2 also.

do you actually think there is that much of a difference between lvl 1 and lvl 2 that if those other hands were right at 1 they'd be wrong at 2?

[ QUOTE ]
Level 3 I tighten up considerably.

[/ QUOTE ]

to what? i'm guessing your lvl3 standards are closer to the correct lvl1 standards than your current lvl1 standards

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confident in my abilities not to get trapped early on. I spend most of my time in the 100s and I feel I hit enough with these speculative hands (and have people pay me off enough) to justify playing these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I have not really gotten any responses of any real substance. Just stuff like, "this is laughable". If calling 15 chips with 98s on level 1 is laughable, then go ahead roar it up. Whatever, I see flops early on because I feel I can make proper decisions post flop. Its + EV for me. My stats for around 800 SNGs on the 100/200 level is right where I think it should be.

Maybe you knuckleheads just caught me on a bad day. But you can be a great player and still give advice without coming off as pompous ass. Maybe this attitude starts with the two stooges at the top and filters down. Who knows. Get over yourself.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you play too loose too, but i'd like to hear what some other players think.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I also think you have to be extremely tight when calling a raise, I almost never do it with AQ. If you can limp, im fine with going down to AJs, KQs. I routinely lay down AK for 4+BB raises from solid players since it's a dead giveaway for AA-QQ. I am right often enough to motivate folding AK in those spots.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
that's quite tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even play AJ! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Corona anyone? No thanks!

In your face!

Yugoslav

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the first 3 levels, I play tight both pre and post flop. Calling preflop with anything adds up fast, especially if you are forced to call a few min-raises.

Hands I usually play
1) Any pair
2) Axs
3) Two suited broadways (most 2 broadways for that matter)
4) Suited connectors
5) Few unsuited connectors such as JTo and T9o



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's nowhere near tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is laughable.

Applicable definition of tight:
"used of persons or behavior; characterized by or indicative of lack of generosity"

That is a generous list of ways to leak chips early in a SitNGo.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you always play postflop like I see in some of your posts, I wouldn't play many hands preflop either. lol

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, I have not really gotten any responses of any real substance.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you have. Your mind just isn't open to them. Which is okay I guess, but will hurt your ability to get value out of this forum.

[ QUOTE ]

Just stuff like, "this is laughable". If calling 15 chips with 98s on level 1 is laughable, then go ahead roar it up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bwahahahahaha!

[ QUOTE ]

Whatever, I see flops early on because I feel I can make proper decisions post flop. Its + EV for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guarantee you that in the Party STTs you are not making *any* money off of 98s (and a ton of those other hands you covet).

[ QUOTE ]

My stats for around 800 SNGs on the 100/200 level is right where I think it should be.

Maybe you knuckleheads just caught me on a bad day. But you can be a great player and still give advice without coming off as pompous ass. Maybe this attitude starts with the two stooges at the top and filters down. Who knows. Get over yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hang around this forum long enough and make enough strides in your game and one of two things will happen:

1. You will stop posting except for 'Worst Fold Ever' (see Dali for prime examples) threads.
2. You will end up like citanul....the gatekeeper to knowledge and resident pompous ass.

What's funny is that I'd imagine you'd prefer the first type of poster, but you really *should* prefer the latter.

Yugoslav
<font color="white">
Secret option #3 (and best, perhaps): You turn into Lorinda and make cryptic remarks here and there, exhibiting personality twists where you talk down the pompous asses occasionally and turn into one yourself at the same time. Also, you will accidentally give out amazingly astute advice from time to time - thankfully no one pays attention. You will have an impenetrable aura of mystery and no one will be quite sure what to make of you, your posts, or your avatar.
</font>

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Okay, I have not really gotten any responses of any real substance.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you have. Your mind just isn't open to them. Which is okay I guess, but will hurt your ability to get value out of this forum.

[ QUOTE ]

Just stuff like, "this is laughable". If calling 15 chips with 98s on level 1 is laughable, then go ahead roar it up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bwahahahahaha!

[ QUOTE ]

Whatever, I see flops early on because I feel I can make proper decisions post flop. Its + EV for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guarantee you that in the Party STTs you are not making *any* money off of 98s (and a ton of those other hands you covet).

[ QUOTE ]

My stats for around 800 SNGs on the 100/200 level is right where I think it should be.

Maybe you knuckleheads just caught me on a bad day. But you can be a great player and still give advice without coming off as pompous ass. Maybe this attitude starts with the two stooges at the top and filters down. Who knows. Get over yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hang around this forum long enough and make enough strides in your game and one of two things will happen:

1. You will stop posting except for 'Worst Fold Ever' (see Dali for prime examples) threads.
2. You will end up like citanul....the gatekeeper to knowledge and resident pompous ass.

What's funny is that I'd imagine you'd prefer the first type of poster, but you really *should* prefer the latter.

Yugoslav
<font color="white">
Secret option #3 (and best, perhaps): You turn into Lorinda and make cryptic remarks here and there, exhibiting personality twists where you talk down the pompous asses occasionally and turn into one yourself at the same time. Also, you will accidentally give out amazingly astute advice from time to time - thankfully no one pays attention. You will have an impenetrable aura of mystery and no one will be quite sure what to make of you, your posts, or your avatar.
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="white">yeah, exactly... </font>

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that's quite tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even play AJ! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Corona anyone? No thanks!

In your face!

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play AJ OR 77. Can you beat that?
Actually, I have a feeling our starting hand requirements are identical. Hmmmm.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes limp AJ/KQ, KJ-QJs, etc. in position [...] with some suited connectors thrown in when I feel I have odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I do this too.

I'm glad to know that I'm on the right track. It didn't take too many tournaments to adjust my pre-flop strategy to the one I outlined above. Maybe 10-15 tournaments before I had the above strategy as my pre-flop game.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Okay, I have not really gotten any responses of any real substance.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you have. Your mind just isn't open to them. Which is okay I guess, but will hurt your ability to get value out of this forum.

[ QUOTE ]

Just stuff like, "this is laughable". If calling 15 chips with 98s on level 1 is laughable, then go ahead roar it up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bwahahahahaha!

[ QUOTE ]

Whatever, I see flops early on because I feel I can make proper decisions post flop. Its + EV for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guarantee you that in the Party STTs you are not making *any* money off of 98s (and a ton of those other hands you covet).

[ QUOTE ]

My stats for around 800 SNGs on the 100/200 level is right where I think it should be.

Maybe you knuckleheads just caught me on a bad day. But you can be a great player and still give advice without coming off as pompous ass. Maybe this attitude starts with the two stooges at the top and filters down. Who knows. Get over yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hang around this forum long enough and make enough strides in your game and one of two things will happen:

1. You will stop posting except for 'Worst Fold Ever' (see Dali for prime examples) threads.
2. You will end up like citanul....the gatekeeper to knowledge and resident pompous ass.

What's funny is that I'd imagine you'd prefer the first type of poster, but you really *should* prefer the latter.

Yugoslav
<font color="white">
Secret option #3 (and best, perhaps): You turn into Lorinda and make cryptic remarks here and there, exhibiting personality twists where you talk down the pompous asses occasionally and turn into one yourself at the same time. Also, you will accidentally give out amazingly astute advice from time to time - thankfully no one pays attention. You will have an impenetrable aura of mystery and no one will be quite sure what to make of you, your posts, or your avatar.
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll reread the thread and try to ignore all the useless BS. Maybe there are a few nuggets in there.

Well, the only hands I truly covet on level 1 are pocket pairs. Give me 22-99. I like to save getting the bigger pairs for later. I'm sure I have made money in the long run on all of these. 98s and the like, I'd have to fire hand histories into tracker. But its at worst neutral and cannot be a hole in one's game in level 1 unless you are undisciplined or do not play well post flop. I sort of enjoy playing flops and poker in general.

Your two choices below...could I choose somewhere in between? Citanul is the key to knowledge huh? We are not splitting the electron here. We are simply playing 1 Table Tournaments against alot of people who do not know what they are doing nor care to. This is not rocket science, get over yourselves.

[The Yugoslavian]

Pipes,

You have succeeded in tricking me into posting this thread for you:

may Citanul's wrath upon me be quick and just (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1640658&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;vc=1)

Bah!

Yugoslav
PS The Shadow does not have my permission to click on the link unless he is confident that he can practice some self-restraint...

[Voltron87]

Low pps are almost the only speculative hands that are worth playing in SNGs. This is because on the flop you either set up or do not. If you play stuff like 45s-89s, you will catch pieces of it but rarely nail the flop down like with a set. Plus, with the dynamics of SNG chip stacks and the value of Tchips and cash chips everything works differently. So hands like Axs and 67s are not as valuable as in deep stacked NL games, where they are great (Axs less so).

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
Low pps are almost the only speculative hands that are worth playing in SNGs. This is because on the flop you either set up or do not. If you play stuff like 45s-89s, you will catch pieces of it but rarely nail the flop down like with a set. Plus, with the dynamics of SNG chip stacks and the value of Tchips and cash chips everything works differently. So hands like Axs and 67s are not as valuable as in deep stacked NL games, where they are great (Axs less so).

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much agree. But I still play hands like 87s in Level 1 for many reasons.
1) Makes things are little more interesting. Playing poker is fun
2) I get away very easily from flops where I have just a piece
3) Axs is usually pretty good. Sometimes, still even at the 100s and 200s the tables are very passive with someone throwing out a wimp bet of 15 which many people call when you have a four flush. Also, when you flop 2 pair you can get action from someone holding a single ace. Again flushes and two pair don't happen often, but they do happen and its only 15 chips.