raising a paired door card

[beta1607]

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.5, Bring-In $2 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street

Seat 2: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif___brings-in
Seat 7: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls

4th Street

Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets___calls
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif___double raises
Seat 7: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds

5th Street

Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___calls
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets

6th Street

Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___calls
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets

River

Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___checks
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks

Do you like this play on 4th? I wanted to get the hand heads up and did not put seat 5 on split jacks since he would have likely completed with that hand to close the action on 3rd and I caught a jack on 4th.

[SittingBull]

the way.
SittingBull
/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Al Mirpuri]

If the paired doorcard had been playing according to 7CSFAP then your raise would have been wrong as his mostly likely hand is trip jacks. Once he calls, and despite you catching the fourth jack, you know you are winning. Unless of course he can play then all you know is nothing...against this fish your raise worked and won you a pot but against someone who could play it would have been wrong. Do not default raise in these situations unless you feel you know your man.

[bikedocjoe]

I think its marginal on 4th. He could very easily have you beaten with at least two pair. And don't forget, your hand is going to be easy to read. If you make your two pair he will see it. I am definitely not betting into him when he catches the ace on 5th. I would let him bet the jacks and call if you think you have him beat. According to 7csfap, misplaying against the paired door card is one of the most common mistakes made, and from my own personal experience in situations like this, these are money losing situations.

[Andy B]

This is always a tough spot. A lot of players will raise coming in with a pair of Jacks, but a lot won't. I think that the fact that he limped combined with the fact that you caught a Jack tilts things in favor of him not having trips enough that you can continue. You could well be behind to two pair, though, so the primary reason to raise is to drive the other guy out. He should be folding most of the time anyway. This is particularly true if he is a thinking player and thinks anything at all of your play. If a good player calls open Jacks with 4Jo, it gets my attention.

Another factor to consider is how often does this guy bet the minimum with an open pair. Some will bet the minimum with trips to suck people in. Others will bet the minimum because they're clueless. It pays to know your customer.

Beyond that, you played fine, although I would probably take the free card on sixth.

[Ray Zee]

if he knew how to play he would have bet out on 5th or check raised you, and you would have had to fold. that is why you should have stopped betting when he caught the ace. plus that is the card that is most likely the reason he tagged along so it probably would have hit him unless he had you already. if you won it is because he is stupid. which alot of people are.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
if he knew how to play he would have bet out on 5th or check raised you, and you would have had to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting out on fifth looks weak. If he wanted to take the pot away (which isnt going to work against most 5-10 players) a check-raise here is the only way to establish serious strength and maybe induce a fold on fifth or by betting through the river with only jacks. Against most opponents who bet out on fifth with the ace I'm calling the river unimproved. Ray does have a very legit point as to why fifth street should be a check, which I agree with. And thats that the opponent would be more inclined to limp for the bring-in with a live ace underneath. One of those situations where if you bet and he calls you've extracted a fraction of a bet (your a 60/40 favorite here against lone jacks). BUT if he check raises you when you bet 1.) You risk being pushed off the best hand, like a sneaky player like Ray will try to do against you 2.) You've now had to invest two big bets drawing very slim if your behind to aces-up or trip jacks.

Mike Emery

[jon_1van]

Does anyone just fold here?

The pot is tiny.
We could be far behind to trip Jacks....very bad
We could be behind Jacks up with nothing but dead cards in our hand....pretty bad
We could be slightly ahead with bare Kings and dead cards...no reason to throw a party.

I generally like the "play that minimizes the worst possible outcome" ie fold.

Am I too week tight

P.S. Hawaii was awesome....my whole face is burnt except where I was wearing my sunglasses (the eyes are pale white)

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally like the "play that minimizes the worst possible outcome" ie fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is certainly weak-tight thinking, and probably costs you money overall. In this particular instance, however, I don't think that folding on fourth is a terrible idea.

[Bartholow]

I like your thinking here Jon. Without even a completion on third, it really is reasonable to just pack it in.

[jon_1van]

I think this way mostly on 3rd (maybe 4th) and 7th streets.

7th (call alot)
3rd/4th (fold if in doubt)

Since being over aggressive is my biggest problem anytime that I can save myself from jamming from behind that is very good.

[beta1607]

Looking back - It does seem like folding 4th would not have been a bad play at all. I am likely behind already and by raising I force myself to play a big pot with a medicore holding.

As Ray Zee pointed out, the only way I would win the pot was if the other player was an idiot - and thankfully this was on Party Poker so I won it with my kings against unimproved jacks /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ray Zee]

if he bets out on fifth it is correct to fold kings up, so you have to be gone at that point.
in any reasonable game the person will bet out on fifth and win the pot unless hero has a four card draw or trips. and there is no hand i wouldnt bet out with unless hero is so tight he must have trips to have raised on fourth.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

if he bets out on fifth it is correct to fold kings up, so you have to be gone at that point.
in any reasonable game the person will bet out on fifth and win the pot unless hero has a four card draw or trips. and there is no hand i wouldnt bet out with unless hero is so tight he must have trips to have raised on fourth.



[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting Ray. I must say through the years you've advocated throwing away some hands that appear suprising to me, this is another one of them. Of all the posts I've read of yours I have come to the conclusion 1.)your more aggressive on third street than most 2.)your capable of throwing some big hands away on fifth however. Possibly the second is a big flaw in my game. Your not worried about getting bet off the best hand here? If he checks fifth and you check behind are you calling sixth? An opponent might reason that his jacks are somehow ahead after you check behind fifth, and bet.

Mike Emery

[Andy B]

Just to clarify, you're saying that if the other guy bets fifth street, our hero will have to fold Kings-up every time, not just because the other guy caught an Ace, right? And you, in the other guy's shoes, would bet fifth no matter what you caught, yes? Well, you may not know this, but a lot of on-line players stink, so there's no real reason to fear the other guy betting hero off the best hand on fifth. There's also no reason to sit in "reasonable" $5/10 games these days, especially on-line.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify, you're saying that if the other guy bets fifth street, our hero will have to fold Kings-up every time, not just because the other guy caught an Ace, right? And you, in the other guy's shoes, would bet fifth no matter what you caught, yes? Well, you may not know this, but a lot of on-line players stink, so there's no real reason to fear the other guy betting hero off the best hand on fifth. There's also no reason to sit in "reasonable" $5/10 games these days, especially on-line.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the same thing. I'm just having trouble envisioning a "reasonable game" here. At 5-10 players dont even know how to explain why they do something, so I cant lay kings up on fifth down. At a high limit like 75-150 I cant either because I'd be too afraid of a soild player putting a "move" on me, exactly like Ray said he would do if he held the open jacks. So where is this "reasonable game"/limit I can fold kings up?

Mike Emery

[Andy B]

I'll let you know when I find one. I've only played in six different card rooms and on four or five internet sites, as well as in home games ranging from $.50/1.00 to $40/80. Hell, I've never even been to Las Vegas, so I still have a lot of searching left to do.

[SittingBull]

It's quite possible he was just a fisherman. I really don't see any reason to stop the drive on 5th just because an "A" popped up.
MOST players would bet A's up..but he checked. This provides evidence to me that he was still on a fishing expedition.
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull

[SittingBull]

taking it down! BTW,did U ask him how he likes his NEW BOSS after taking it down. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull

[SittingBull]

MOST players at these limits would have played back at u on 4th and almost certainly on 5th. He did NEITHER.
Hence,UR good on 5th.
SittingBull

[SittingBull]

is A's up. So Y continue to play? MOST of the time,u will lose. The reason he would bet out is that he is afraid Hero would check behind him had he checked A's up. Hence,he would risk giving Hero a free play.

SittingBull

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

is A's up. So Y continue to play? MOST of the time,u will lose. The reason he would bet out is that he is afraid Hero would check behind him had he checked A's up. Hence,he would risk giving Hero a free play.

SittingBull

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd continue to play if he bet out on fifth (there are a few select players I would fold to) because of what I already mentioned.

1.) People are dumb, especially 5-10 players. They might just feel like betting for reasons I cant explain (possibly thinking they're bluffing, possibly thinking they're somehow ahead even after getting raised double on fourth). Who knows why, but some will. Others will simply bet because they caught the ace, even if it didnt hit them.

2.) There are filthy, sneaky, cunning, dishonest, clever, hand-in-the-cookie-jar people like Ray Zee out there (as well as the stupid players), that will try to take this away from you with a bet on fifth with nothing but jacks. I for one am calling, if not for the good of my bankroll, for the good of the society. Someone needs to keep these dishonest people like Zee in check. Imagine a society where we let thieves steal whatever they wanted....

Mike Emery

[jon_1van]

Getting played back at doesn't help. Putting in 15 bucks to find out I'm a big dog doesn't make me super happy. Putting in 15 bucks and finding out that I'm a slight favorite doesn't thrill me either. Sure it's nice to learn...but having learned it I'm not exactly throwing a party

[Ray Zee]

andy, also to clarify when i talk about a hand its what i believe might be the correct play against a decent or aware player in general. not against a person who is drunk or doesnt know how to play or hasnt looked at his cards. i understand most of the small games on line and in casinos have players just like this. even in the very big games it happens alot. but my advice would hold true against a decent player that understands the game somewhat. you can also use it to play against someone as well. but to just say call all the way even if it is right in this spot, takes away from analyizing poker hands.
and yes against a good player i would almost always fold kings up if he bet out on fifth. and against most bad players.

[SittingBull]

NOT see him in any 5/10 game.
Remember,the thinking of upper mid-limit players are quite different from the thinking of MOST players at the 5/10 limit.
The reason MOST upper-mid-limit players cannot beat the lower limits like 5/10 is that they continue to think like upper mid-limit players. It's very difficult for them to think like the little kids on the block.
Conversely,the little kids can't beat the bigger kids at their level because they are not able to think like the big kids.
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
Michael,RayZee is an upper mid-limit player. U will.... NOT see him in any 5/10 game.
Remember the thinking of upper mid-limit players are quite different from the thinking of MOST players at the 5/10 limit.
The reason MOST upper-mid-limit players cannot beat the lower limits like 5/10 is that they continue to think like upper mid-limit players. It's very difficult for them to think like the little kids on the block.
Conversely,the little kids can't beat the bigger kids at their level because they are not able to think like the big kids.
HappyPokering,
SittingBull


[/ QUOTE ]

Have you played any of the upper/mid-limits before bull? From my experience in Atlantic City folding kings-up on fifth because my opponent caught, and bet a scare card into me, isnt generally correct. Also, I hope you were not serious about most mid/high limit players not being able to beat a 5-10 game, most would crush it. Perhaps some might not win as much as they could (mainly having trouble gearing completely down to the low ante structure) but generally all would be significant winners.

Mike Emery

[Ray Zee]

this isnt just a scare card. he has two jacks and an ace all of which cost you three full bets to play it out if he has one in the hole or catches one. playing on in these spots is one of the most things that bad players regularly do. as they dont value their hand in relation to what the opponet may have. in someones particular game it certainly may be right to call down as players there may bet through the river with bad hands. those games i am not referring to.
and you are right any good high limit player that wanted to would crush a small game. once they bother to adapt they would simply make better plays and win more money.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
I for one am calling, if not for the good of my bankroll, for the good of the society.

[/ QUOTE ]

How noble.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SittingBull]

structures. In fact, MOST players don't adjust to different types of games. For example,many players incorrectly apply the principles of hold'em to Omaha. Many stud players come into hold'em games applying the same principles.
HappyPokering,
/images/graemlins/smile.gifSittingBull

[SittingBull]

upper mid-limit games. The highest I've played is 5/25 spread--$3 ante,$5 low-card.
But that was a ONE TIME session.
My vast amount of experience is in MIcro .25/.50 to 1/5 no ante stud.
As I stated before,MOST upper mid-limit players can't beat the low limit games because they DO NOT ADJUST to the lower structures. It requires a lot of work to adjust. They will NOT make the effort to do so.
Formed HABITS are difficult to break.
Everybody has certain habits. If one is willing to apply some effort to determine his oppos. habits,he will be able to obtain a good read and most likely bring his oppos. down.
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull